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Kettlebell Productive Path to Long Term Goals

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Gary Logue

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I have broken down my long term goal of high level GPP into clear targets with resources for each (articles are 2nd choice to assist in event of plateau). There is no exact time restraint as enjoyment of the journey would be the key to ensure consistency but let’s take 5 years as an example.

My question is, should I put these programmes in a certain order to have optimal impact across the board? Would running one over the other first have a positive impact in the skill of another. For eg would running ROP improve my TGU without actually doing any TGU or vice versa re press.

Goals and current state listed below. Any adjustments to targets or additional targets that would improve a high level of GPP or general enjoyment are welcomed but please don’t steer away from the ‘goal’ of the post.



Current State:
Weight = 77kg
S&S = 24kg
Snatch = N/A
Deadlift = 145kg
Squat = 130kg
Bench = 80kg
KB 1HMP = 32kg 1RM
WPU = 8kg 1RM
Pistol Squat = 8kg 1RM

Targets:
Capacity:
100 swings in 5 minutes - 48kg = S&S
200 snatches in 10 minutes - 32kg (sick) = ROP/A+A

Strength:

BB:
Deadlift - 3 x BW = PTTP/Faleev 5x5
Squat - 3 x BW = PTTP/Faleev 5x5
Bench - 2 x BW = PTTP/Faleev 5x5

KB:
Military Press - 48kg 1RM = ETK/SSFDT
TGU - 48kg 10x1 = S&S
Weighted Pull Up - 48kg 1RM = ROP/SSFDT/FPP
Pistol Squat - 48kg 1RM = ETK (ROP variety days)/SSFDT

Resources:
Books:
1. PTTP
2. ETK
3. S&S

Read no 2 & 3. 50% theough

Articles:
1. Faleevs 5x5
2. Fighter Pull Up Programme
3. Simple Strength For Difficult Times
4. A
 
If you're cycling through KB/barbell modalities, I don't think the sequencing matters all that much as you'll be rotating between things anyway.

Personally, I switch between barbell and KB modalities every 6 months.

In the 'off season' for one, I'll do little practice sessions 1-2 times a week on variety days.

For example, right now barbell season has started due to weightlifting competition prep for November meets, so weightlifting programming dictates my core schedule.

But I'll stick in KB work with swings, TGU, and windmills on variety days twice a week.

When barbell season is over in the winter, I'll switch to predominantly KB work, but keep some barbell work in the mix 1-2 a week.
 
There should be plenty of carryover between the different ways of training.

Even if you enjoy the process, I recommend you pick relatively short term SMART goals and plan for them.
 
In the 'off season' for one, I'll do little practice sessions 1-2 times a week on variety days.

For example, right now barbell season has started due to weightlifting competition prep for November meets, so weightlifting programming dictates my core schedule.

But I'll stick in KB work with swings, TGU, and windmills on variety days twice a week.

When barbell season is over in the winter, I'll switch to predominantly KB work, but keep some barbell work in the mix 1-2 a week.
@watchnerd I get what you’re saying and this makes a lot of sense. Running PTTP I can use swings as the ‘cardio’ element but I’d refrain from using KB grinds as well as my bench and deadlift or do you think 1-2 days of TGU’s would do no harm?

When it comes to running S&S I could fit a condensed version of Faleevs 5x5. Running ROP I wouldn’t be keen on adding anything due to fear of overtraining.
 
There should be plenty of carryover between the different ways of training.

Even if you enjoy the process, I recommend you pick relatively short term SMART goals and plan for them.

@Antti thanks for the response. Do you think a max amount of time should be spent on each programme so as not to allow weakness to develop in other parts or run a programme until a short term goal has been achieved (or a plateau kicks in)?

Short term SMART goals can be set fairly easily here. ROP = 40kg with the 24kg snatch test. S&S = achieve simple. PTTP = 2.5 x DL & 1.5 x Bench.

Do you not think running ROP over S&S would be more beneficial rather than just throwing a finger in the air? For example would increasing my 1RM MP to 40kg and completing the 24kg snatch test not bring more benefits to my short term simple goal than vice versa?

I’m cautious of overthinking here but the key to post is how to be most productive with my time as we are talking fairly big long term goals.
 
@Antti thanks for the response. Do you think a max amount of time should be spent on each programme so as not to allow weakness to develop in other parts or run a programme until a short term goal has been achieved (or a plateau kicks in)?

Short term SMART goals can be set fairly easily here. ROP = 40kg with the 24kg snatch test. S&S = achieve simple. PTTP = 2.5 x DL & 1.5 x Bench.

Do you not think running ROP over S&S would be more beneficial rather than just throwing a finger in the air? For example would increasing my 1RM MP to 40kg and completing the 24kg snatch test not bring more benefits to my short term simple goal than vice versa?

I’m cautious of overthinking here but the key to post is how to be most productive with my time as we are talking fairly big long term goals.

I think it's optimal to pick a specific goal for a certain timeframe, like say 6-12 weeks. Maintain your other important attributes during that period with like a single session a week or so.

I'm not sure if that's the short term in your book. For example, getting your bench from 80kg to 120kg takes time. I would still make smaller goals. Or divide your goal into smaller timeframes.

Continuing on the bench press, say you want to improve 40kg in a year as a novice. That means you should improve by 10kg every three months. That's four short term goals in succession which leads to a longer term goal. Which is a part of your real long term goal of double bodyweight.

Dividing your expectations in smaller blocks makes it easier to plan and see what works and what doesn't. Say you missed two of your 10kg improvement goals next year. Can you still reasonably expect to hit 40kg in the course of the whole year? What would you have to change to do it? Or should you change goals?

There's a concept of phase potentiation, or contrasts, how the body adapts best to novel stimuli. In a smaller context it could mean maintaining your squat and bench and focusing on your deadlift in a powerlifting block; always picking the lacking lift. Or having a block of hypertrophy training before a strength training block. Or running a block of ROP and then a block of Faleev. In each of these cases, I would still have a weekly session of the other attributes to maintain them. Squat and bench press hard once a week while doing ROP, swing hard once a week while doing Faleev, etc. Of course, if the blocks are shorter you can go without the maintaining sessions.

Remember that strength comes slower and leaves slower.

There's an article "Absolute Strength is the True Master Quality". Absolute Strength Is the True Master Quality | StrongFirst

Personally, I found the barbell lifts do more for my kettlebell lifts than the other way around. That would take more of my time, or I would at least first build a base of absolute strength.
 
I think it's optimal to pick a specific goal for a certain timeframe, like say 6-12 weeks. Maintain your other important attributes during that period with like a single session a week or so.

I'm not sure if that's the short term in your book. For example, getting your bench from 80kg to 120kg takes time. I would still make smaller goals. Or divide your goal into smaller timeframes.

Continuing on the bench press, say you want to improve 40kg in a year as a novice. That means you should improve by 10kg every three months. That's four short term goals in succession which leads to a longer term goal. Which is a part of your real long term goal of double bodyweight.

Dividing your expectations in smaller blocks makes it easier to plan and see what works and what doesn't. Say you missed two of your 10kg improvement goals next year. Can you still reasonably expect to hit 40kg in the course of the whole year? What would you have to change to do it? Or should you change goals?

There's a concept of phase potentiation, or contrasts, how the body adapts best to novel stimuli. In a smaller context it could mean maintaining your squat and bench and focusing on your deadlift in a powerlifting block; always picking the lacking lift. Or having a block of hypertrophy training before a strength training block. Or running a block of ROP and then a block of Faleev. In each of these cases, I would still have a weekly session of the other attributes to maintain them. Squat and bench press hard once a week while doing ROP, swing hard once a week while doing Faleev, etc. Of course, if the blocks are shorter you can go without the maintaining sessions.

Remember that strength comes slower and leaves slower.

There's an article "Absolute Strength is the True Master Quality". Absolute Strength Is the True Master Quality | StrongFirst

Personally, I found the barbell lifts do more for my kettlebell lifts than the other way around. That would take more of my time, or I would at least first build a base of absolute strength.

@Antti thank you for this detailed response. I’ll take those long term goals and break them down into realistic 6-12 week block goals that are geared towards medium term goals (12 month app) then tweak as required. I’ll add in the 1-2 per week maintaining sessions if/when required.

The absolute strength article is a good read thanks for sharing.
 
@watchnerd I get what you’re saying and this makes a lot of sense. Running PTTP I can use swings as the ‘cardio’ element but I’d refrain from using KB grinds as well as my bench and deadlift or do you think 1-2 days of TGU’s would do no harm?

When it comes to running S&S I could fit a condensed version of Faleevs 5x5. Running ROP I wouldn’t be keen on adding anything due to fear of overtraining.

When I'm going barbell work, I don't do heavy TGUs or use them as a strength move.

I keep the weight modest, at "cruising" weight. In my case, 24 kg works fine -- not stressful, but not so light I can get stupid sloppy.

I use it as mobility work, to counter-act the sagittal plane dominance and lack of rotation in barbell work.
 
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Personally, I found the barbell lifts do more for my kettlebell lifts than the other way around. That would take more of my time, or I would at least first build a base of absolute strength.

Ditto.

The 'WTH' effect is bi-directional for some moves, and often goes just as much from BB to KB as the other way around.

My KB swing goes up faster when my Clean Pull increases.
 
@Gary Logue
This might not be what you want to hear, and you might not be ready to hear it, but I honestly think this is not a productive path to long term goals, so I'm just going to put it out there.

First, I'd suggest thinking a little bit more about what your goals actually are.
I have broken down my long term goal of high level GPP
GPP only really exists relative to SPP. For a football player, the barbell back squat is GPP; for a powerlifter, it's SPP. General physical preparedness is training that prepares you specialized training. No SPP, no GPP.

Your stated goals in specific lifts are pretty high level, and that kind of specificity and high level performance is more in the realm of specialization than generalization. The only thing general about them is that there are a variety of different goals, but each of them by itself is going to require specialized training over the long term.

These targets are also so high and far away from your current capabilities, that you can't really plan a direct path to achieving them. If you have no snatch baseline, you can't start a training program to snatch 32kg x 200 x 10 minutes. If you DL less than 2 x BW, you can't start a training program to DL 3 x BW. You can start programs to improve your snatch and DL, but you won't be doing a program to meet those goals.

If by GPP, you mean that you want to be strong and healthy, the most important factors are going to be patience, consistency, avoiding injury, and being flexible in adjusting to changing circumstances. The specifics of what you do are of lesser importance, and while goals like a 3 x BW DL and snatching 32kg x 200 x 10 minutes are certainly achievable, they are not necessary to a generalized goal of strength and health.

I'd also strongly advise doing some regular playful movement variety, such as Original Strength. As you get older you lose freedom of movement two ways. Gradually and then suddenly (to steal a line from Hemingway). The more movement variety you engage in, the less you lose, and the less "mobility" or "flexibility" or, God forbid, "corrective" training you will need, the less likely you are to get injured, and the more free-flowing your movement will be.
 
This is a really interesting thread and some excellent thoughts. I hope it continues to generate more discussion.

I agree with @Steve W. that these are too far off to be good "goals" but the can certainly be a "beacon" (in the words of @Al Ciampa) or provide your "bearing" (in the words of Dustin Rippetoe). The idea with both is that these can exist as something you want to head towards -- nothing wrong with that -- but then remove your gaze from them, become process focused instead of goal-focused, and set smaller, closer mileposts that you can celebrate along the way. Then, as many people say, Enjoy the Journey.

Would running one over the other first have a positive impact in the skill of another. For eg would running ROP improve my TGU without actually doing any TGU or vice versa re press.

All that said, I do think you have an excellent question here. And I think the answer is "yes" pretty much whatever order you go in. So there's not much need to strategically aim structure them to maximize that effect. Just pick one, do it, learn, benefit, and move on.

Generally speaking, I agree with @Antti that focusing on absolute strength for a while will serve you well and perhaps provide the biggest platform to build on. As Pavel says, "You can be anything you want to be, but you must be Strong First."
 
@Gary Logue
This might not be what you want to hear, and you might not be ready to hear it, but I honestly think this is not a productive path to long term goals, so I'm just going to put it out there.

First, I'd suggest thinking a little bit more about what your goals actually are.

GPP only really exists relative to SPP. For a football player, the barbell back squat is GPP; for a powerlifter, it's SPP. General physical preparedness is training that prepares you specialized training. No SPP, no GPP.

Your stated goals in specific lifts are pretty high level, and that kind of specificity and high level performance is more in the realm of specialization than generalization. The only thing general about them is that there are a variety of different goals, but each of them by itself is going to require specialized training over the long term.

These targets are also so high and far away from your current capabilities, that you can't really plan a direct path to achieving them. If you have no snatch baseline, you can't start a training program to snatch 32kg x 200 x 10 minutes. If you DL less than 2 x BW, you can't start a training program to DL 3 x BW. You can start programs to improve your snatch and DL, but you won't be doing a program to meet those goals.

If by GPP, you mean that you want to be strong and healthy, the most important factors are going to be patience, consistency, avoiding injury, and being flexible in adjusting to changing circumstances. The specifics of what you do are of lesser importance, and while goals like a 3 x BW DL and snatching 32kg x 200 x 10 minutes are certainly achievable, they are not necessary to a generalized goal of strength and health.

I'd also strongly advise doing some regular playful movement variety, such as Original Strength. As you get older you lose freedom of movement two ways. Gradually and then suddenly (to steal a line from Hemingway). The more movement variety you engage in, the less you lose, and the less "mobility" or "flexibility" or, God forbid, "corrective" training you will need, the less likely you are to get injured, and the more free-flowing your movement will be.
@Steve W. Appreciate the feedback and as mentioned above more than welcome any suggestions but really want to stay focused on the discussion around prioritising the programmes to achieve ultimate productivity across the skills and long term goals.

You’re right the GPP term as a way of summarising these goals is inaccurate. I won’t even try but essentially it’s the beast tamer, sinister, good powerlifting standards and a heavy snatch test. All covered in 3-4 programmes.

Patience and enjoying the journey are the most important thing for me here, there is no time constraint. This could take 5 years, 10 years, may never happen or goals may alter over the years.

I’ll look into Original Strength again. I’ve been recommended this before but instead went with a daily dose of Flexible Steel.
 
This is a really interesting thread and some excellent thoughts. I hope it continues to generate more discussion.

I agree with @Steve W. that these are too far off to be good "goals" but the can certainly be a "beacon" (in the words of @Al Ciampa) or provide your "bearing" (in the words of Dustin Rippetoe). The idea with both is that these can exist as something you want to head towards -- nothing wrong with that -- but then remove your gaze from them, become process focused instead of goal-focused, and set smaller, closer mileposts that you can celebrate along the way. Then, as many people say, Enjoy the Journey.



All that said, I do think you have an excellent question here. And I think the answer is "yes" pretty much whatever order you go in. So there's not much need to strategically aim structure them to maximize that effect. Just pick one, do it, learn, benefit, and move on.

Generally speaking, I agree with @Antti that focusing on absolute strength for a while will serve you well and perhaps provide the biggest platform to build on. As Pavel says, "You can be anything you want to be, but you must be Strong First."
@Anna C a “beacon” is the perfect way to put it. I have focused on the long, medium and short term goal process in my career over the last 5 years and it’s worked wonders. This clearly works for me hence incorporating it to my training.

As mentioned above the time is not a key factor, the enjoyment of the journey is key and things may change slightly. I’ll be breaking this down into short term goals so I’m not trying to blast this out or anything like that.

I’m getting some good ideas on how to run this already from the points above. Hopefully some further discussion can help flesh out the detail of the benefits of strength in particular skills transferring over to another.

As we’ve discussed before I like working my deadlift and @Antti sharing the article above has helped reinforce that so a run of PTTP looks like first choice. I progressed quite quickly with ROP as well so that may come after followed by S&S then cycle between them based off feel, experience, weaknesses etc.
 
Your goals are exceptionally ambitious. And they are many.

I used to also think that way, and set myself very many, and very ambitious goals. They are ambitious for a reason. Not many people reach them. In theory it is all very easy. Just keep doing ROP with gradually heavier weights, and then you will lift the beast. But it is not that easy. life happens, you get bored, you get distracted, you get injured, you don't manage to sleep enough or eat enough. You might be the exception, but there are not many exceptions. We don't like to be average, but most of us are exactly that, average.

I would pick a couple of goals, maybe reduce the ambition a bit, and then work on it for a long, long time until you reach that goal.
 
Your goals are exceptionally ambitious. And they are many.

I used to also think that way, and set myself very many, and very ambitious goals. They are ambitious for a reason. Not many people reach them. In theory it is all very easy. Just keep doing ROP with gradually heavier weights, and then you will lift the beast. But it is not that easy. life happens, you get bored, you get distracted, you get injured, you don't manage to sleep enough or eat enough. You might be the exception, but there are not many exceptions. We don't like to be average, but most of us are exactly that, average.

I would pick a couple of goals, maybe reduce the ambition a bit, and then work on it for a long, long time until you reach that goal.
Anders yeah pretty ambitious goals but happy enough as they are and will tweak these as time progresses. I know from experience that I don’t like small long term goals, if I push to these and reach only 80% of my ambition I will have achieved a lot.

The medium term goals will keep me going for a long time and they will gradually increase over longer periods of time until I move towards the “beacon”.

I’m kind of regretting sticking the goals in there but they do help form the basis of the discussion which I wanted to centre around the most productive way to reach such goals.
 
Yes, if you stick your goals here, sometimes they will be met with criticism which might hurt.

I actually disagree with you there. Let us take the press as the example. The best way of pressing 40 kilo, is to have 40 kilo as a goal. The best way to press 40 kilo, is not have 48 kilo as a goal and then to reach 80 percent of that.

But I also sympathize with you. Mediocre goals are not sexy.

I wish you the best of luck.
 
Yes, if you stick your goals here, sometimes they will be met with criticism which might hurt.

I actually disagree with you there. Let us take the press as the example. The best way of pressing 40 kilo, is to have 40 kilo as a goal. The best way to press 40 kilo, is not have 48 kilo as a goal and then to reach 80 percent of that.

But I also sympathize with you. Mediocre goals are not sexy.

I wish you the best of luck.
@Anders I’m more than humble enough to take on board comments that are all well intentioned. My point is, I was pretty clear in the initial post what the question was and what I was hoping to gain from the discussion.

I disagree re your example. Continuing with that as a basis. My long term goal is a 48kg press. My current 1RM is 32kg. My medium term goal for app 12 months would be 40kg but the next time I run ROP on a 6-12 week cycle I will have a short term goal of 36kg, that will be my sole focus during that 6-12 week.

“If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.”
 
I found this book interesting;

Think Small: The Surprisingly Simple Ways to Reach Big Goals​

One method is to make your goals known; to publish or announce them, so to speak. This provides a strong motivation to achieve and with your post you have made that first step. Well done.
The question I ask myself is will each cycle provide the gains you expect and, if not, will you become disheartened?
 
I found this book interesting;

Think Small: The Surprisingly Simple Ways to Reach Big Goals​

One method is to make your goals known; to publish or announce them, so to speak. This provides a strong motivation to achieve and with your post you have made that first step. Well done.
The question I ask myself is will each cycle provide the gains you expect and, if not, will you become disheartened?
@Pete L it’s a good question. I think I need to ensure the short term goals are SMART with a focus on the attainable.

I enjoy the journey, the movement, learning different things as I progress with the skills so I’m hoping by keeping this as my focus the gains will come and if they don’t then I need to revaluate without being too disheartened.
 
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