all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Program Hopping

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
If you know you are prone to do that, maybe pick a program that only lasts for 4 weeks. Many of Geoff’s programs in Kettlebell Express says something to the effect of, “After 4 weeks, move on.” They are not designed to last forever like S&S, so they’re already more like how you operate.
 
If you want then hop all you like. I could never just do 100 swings and 10 TGU. Do what you enjoy. I enjoy complexes, callisthenics, the giant, the king size killer and Dan Johns 10,000 swing challenge to name a few. When I run KSK or the giant I still do dips and chins and if I feel like doing something on the off days I’ll do something. Also just like BJJ Shawn just said find programs that are only 4 week blocks just like Geoff Neuperts.
 
I think minimalist step loading takes a certain personality. To me, it's a total bore, and this ruins my adherence. I got hurt running S&S for two years more than any other program I've ever run for any extended period of time, and it's because I would always get bored and jump the gun. I seem to do better on programs with planned weekly intensity escalations followed by mandatory deloads. To me, this is a huge advantage of barbell training, as you can easily microload if you need to. Much more tricky with kettlebells - usually have to play with volume (e.g. RoP).

Something else that might help is not thinking that you need to chain yourself to one exact, inflexible template for 3 years until you hit some arbitrary goal that someone else set forth (and you adopted). You would probably do fine to experiment with something for, say 6 weeks, take what you like from it, and incorporate new things. This is only a problem if you don't write down what you learn, and/or are constantly making massive adjustments. I forget which book it's in, maybe Naked Warrior, but I remember Pavel saying something to the effect of "simple plans that take care of the details get results." In my interpretation, you can take a program, run it for 6 weeks, chuck one thing (maybe two) and add a new one (maybe two), and proceed, as long as your intention is maintained over some extended period of time until you reach your goal. This is the process of "taking care of the details." This is the concept of "same, but different," as well.
 
Does anyone have any insight or opinions on why I'm like this?
"The Grass Is Always Greener"...

Jumping from one program to another is no different than with diets, jobs, etc.

Many individual see something new and belived it a more effective method than the program they are on.

Constantly hopping from one program to another comes down to a lack of confidence in yourself and the program that you presently performing.

With that said, let's look at...

When To Makes Changes

Periodization Training is the foundation to a well written and excuted training program.

As previously discussed on this site, it is base on a set number or week that starts out easy with progressively loading that increases the intentiy, with a final week of pushing it to the limit.

Once that Periodization Training Program is completed, an New Training Cycle is begun with new exercises or by recycling the exercises you have been performing, starting over with something easy.

"Everything Works But Nothing Works Forever"

The Length of the Training Program has to do with how long an individul has been training, their "Training Age".

Novice Lifters can run a program longer, about 8-12 weeks. They adapt slowly.

Advanced Lifter need to change their program up about every 3-4 weeks. They adapt quickly.

Once adaptation occurs, progress stop.

A good general rule is that when progress stalls, stops or end up going backwards (Overtraining), a program needs to be changes.

A Program That Isn't Working For You

When following a Program that has worked for other but isn't working for you, consider it may be you.

Often some individual misintepret how to perform the program or modify it for some reason.

Essentially what ends up happening is as someone once said...

"A Camel Is A Horse Desinged By A Committee"

In other words. any modification intentionally or unintentially ends up turning the program into a different animal.

Summary

1) Periodization Training

This is a formulated plan; "Plan your work, work your plan".

Give it time to work.

2) Have Faith.

Stick with your plan.

3) Being Consistent is one of the keys to prograss.

Indivual who often hop from one program are, "Consistently Inconsistent". While some program can be make with this Helter Sketer approach, it less that optimal.
 
I'm hoping all the time
Ineffective Training Approach

To reiterate, one of the keys to optimal progress is being Consistent.

Hopping around amount to being "Consistently Inconsistent", which limits progress.

It about to working different jobs, you never become proficient with any job.

Don't worry too much.

Be Concerned

Individual concerned about making progress, should be concerned in hopping around with training program, diets, jobs, etc.
 
I seem to do better on programs with planned weekly intensity escalations followed by mandatory deloads.
Periodization Training

Planned weekly progressive increases in loading is part of a well written Periodization Training Program.

Deloads

A Periodization Training Cycle involves a few week of progressively increasing the load/intensity.

It is then follow by a New Periodization Training Cycle in which new exercises are employed or by recycling the exerices being used in the previous program with light load, then progressively increased.

experiment with something for, say 6 weeks,

6 Weelk Program

This a Periodiozation Training Cycle.

"Training Age"

To reiterate once more, the amount of time an individual has been lifting is know as their "Training Age".

Novice Lifter adapt slowly. They can make progress on with a program for 8-12 weeks before the need to change it.

Adanced Lifter adapt quickly. They need to change their program about every 3-4 weeks.
To me, this is a huge advantage of barbell training, as you can easily microload if you need to.

Not A Microload Fan

"Pavel Tsatsouline on tiny incremental weights... and why you should force yourself to make a jump, instead."

The Benefit of Jumps Between Kettlebell Sizes



As per Pavel in regard to Kettlebell Load, research show there need to be "Sharp increasing in loading; sudden change in load are much more effective for your body than very, very incremental changes".

The same applies for...

Barbell Load Training

In a Periodization Training Program with progressive increases in loads each week, there need to be jumps in loading primarily for Advance Lifer on a 3-4 Week Cycle.

This ensure that "Active Recovery" is a achieved during the first week or two of the Training Cycle. Recovery is where strength increases.

The final week in the Periodization Training Cycle needs to be performed with a load that become a New Personal Best in the Exercise in Repetition, Load or Both.

Squat Example

In my Three Week Periodization Training Cycle, my Squat Load jumps are approximately 30-40 lbs each week.

Thus, in a New Three Week Periodization Cycle is 80-90 lbs heavier than the initial First Week.

My objective in the Last Week in a Three Week Training Cycle it to increase my Squat poundage at least 10 lbs more than my Previous Best.

This approach can be effective for Advanced Lifters.

Novice Lifters

With a Novice Lifter a more Moderate Loading Approach needs to be followed.

The in part due part to the longer Periodization Training Cycle Length and the Learning Curve for them.

With that said. and as Pavel noted, in the video above, the increase Barbell Loading for Men should not be less that 5 kg/11 lbs

To paraphrase Pavel in his video presentation, "Microloading with Tiny, Baby Disk Washers" are not enough to provide "The Sharp Contract" need to evoke the desired Training Effect.
 
I don't know, I'm the same - I think it's partly evolutionary. Our ancestor's days would have been varied, with a huge range of strength and skill usage. Movement - and moving differently than the day before - is fun so... don't worry about it too much.

Obvs if you're training to compete at something then you need specific programming to hit that goal. But for the rest of us, we can just move, keep moving, improve more slowly, enjoy it
 
Hey StrongFirst,

As some of you may know, I have huge problems with program hopping and have currently been on S&S 2.0 for three weeks.

I am sticking to my plan, thank God, but it wasn't without literally writing up a whole rite of passage plan and almost changing direction again.

Does anyone have any insight or opinions on why I'm like this? Is it a lack of discipline or maybe just my handling of stressors in my life?

Thank you, Adam
I think we’re all guilty of that at times. I had a huge issue with it. I think it comes down firstly to having a specific goal. Sometimes our goals collide or/are contraindicated. Narrowing or simplifying the end makes it easier to justify the means and Russ you of excess or distraction.

When your goal is clear, it becomes much simpler and everything you do has a purpose. Training becomes focused. Once you reach your goal, however, the period following it (off season) becomes a good time to tinker abs re-evaluate your future plans. So ask yourself. What do I wish to gain from my training?
 
I like being a jack of a few trades without specializing in 1. for me, it's all about learning the ropes, having fun while getting stronger, powerfuller, enduranter. There cannot be only 1 way to do this. I really enjoy the SS minimalism and have seen benefits over the past 4 months. did I stick to the program? NO. I tailor my own programs based on the original.

My programs are max 12 weeks with 2or4 blocks of 4 weeks. each block is designed to keep me 'trainertained' :) The blocks usually have 3 days of 'on program', 2or3 'off program' and 1or2 rest days per week. the off-days is when I experiment with other ideas. I totally switch things up every couple of blocks. then come back to the original plan.
e.g my current block is focused on running rather than TGU+swings.
block 1 was TGU+swings 12kg.
block 2 was same with 16kg.
block 3 is focused on 70% running+ 30% TGUandSwings 16kg. I didn't achieve my block 3 running goals for life reasons, did my best so am happy to move on and return to these goals in a month or so.
block 4 starts on Sunday...still deciding on the plan.

goal = a timed test of 16kg 100 swings + 10 TGU in 16 minutes.
I achieved it with the the 12kg but really felt that I wanted more endurance after 6 sets of 10 1H swings. hence I added the running focus in block 3. I am feeling more confident after the various hard runs...and less confident about lunging with the 16 above my head ;)

I am 100% certain that I would experience better improvement if I stick to the new S&S v2 schedule. but I think that my tailored approach is more sustainable for me.
 
Variety and novelty can be fun, but constant decision-making is stressful.
This is what I inevitably run into the more I read about other programs or methods or whatever.
If you have to make a new decision every day to stick to a program, that takes a lot more willpower and discipline than just deciding once. It's very liberating not to have to make a choice.
As per above, it is nice to not have to worry about what I “should” be doing. There have been days where I spend the first 20 minutes of my sessions deciding whether I should incorporate certain exercises or not. It’s quite frustrating.
Something else that might help is not thinking that you need to chain yourself to one exact, inflexible template for 3 years until you hit some arbitrary goal that someone else set forth (and you adopted). You would probably do fine to experiment with something for, say 6 weeks, take what you like from it, and incorporate new things.
This is something I thought while reading through the thread.

If you are prone to swapping programs, then working in six week blocks might be the ticket. It’s just enough time to get some adaptation, and then you can get a different kind of stimulus for the following six weeks.

My two cents:

It really comes down to why you train and what you want out of your training. The latter seems to come more easily to me, but the former remains somewhat hard to pin down day to day.

It’s easy to say that we train “for health.” But as this thread is showing, just doing something that is “supposed to be healthy” can get boring. So we have to find something we find interesting.

I’m not “old” but I am about to turn 39, so my body is starting to be more sensitive to volume and intensity. Just “old” enough to have to start really watching my recovery. Also just “old” enough that I have a short list of nagging imbalances and whatnot. That being said, my training philosophy has shifted more towards:

- find what makes your body feel better, then incrementally make that harder, the idea being to strengthen healthy movement.

- see if you can blur the line between re/prehab and performance enhancement.


The above may not be directly tied to program hopping, but it might shed some insight into the reason you train. You might enjoy something because it’s fun, or because it gives you the results you’re after.

What you enjoy and what makes to feel better might be the same thing, or they might not. Either way, I think that training longevity is finding a balance between the two. Program hopping, for me, has always come down to being unsure of my motivations for training. I would look there.
 
The last manufactured program I did was from Weider and I was 12 or 13. For most of my adult life I didn’t even know there was such a thing as “programs” one could purchase, and trained mostly by principles and based on available equipment.

Regardless, if one is having trouble with consistency it is most likely the program is not engaging, it doesn’t align with your goals, it isn’t producing a desired effect.

Start with a goal and find or build a program to suit.
This right here!
 
When your goal is clear, it becomes much simpler and everything you do has a purpose. Training becomes focused. Once you reach your goal, however, the period following it (off season) becomes a good time to tinker abs re-evaluate your future plans. So ask yourself. What do I wish to gain from my training?
Personally, I don't think in terms of performance goals, or programs as means to reach them. I just think in terms of what I want to do, not what I want to gain or achieve apart from that.

So my goal becomes to do the program I choose to do, and when I do the program I achieve my goal.
 
I have huge problems with program hopping

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and so is the effectiveness of a strength and conditioning program.

If program hopping is yielding the results you want for your life, then it's not a problem, it's just you not fitting into someone else's idea of what you should be doing. (I alternate periods of having specific goals and training towards those goals with periods in which I freestyle. I like the intense focus sometimes, but also know I need a break sometimes, and as I look back over the 20 years I've been training for strength and the results I've gotten, I'm pleased.) Not everyone wants or needs "maximum results" or "the most effective program." If you do, then program hopping isn't likely to be your friend, but if you don't, I wouldn't judge yourself too harshly.

-S-
 
Hey StrongFirst,

As some of you may know, I have huge problems with program hopping and have currently been on S&S 2.0 for three weeks.

I am sticking to my plan, thank God, but it wasn't without literally writing up a whole rite of passage plan and almost changing direction again.

Does anyone have any insight or opinions on why I'm like this? Is it a lack of discipline or maybe just my handling of stressors in my life?

Thank you, Adam
First things first, congratulations on your not changing direction again. Almost is almost, it ain't changing direction and it marks your not caving in to temptation. That is a big step in the right direction, as you will have a new temptation (we all do) and are building the habit of staying the course.

Your signature line quotes Pavel T extolling the virtues of the swing, getup, and goblet squat. Hmm. That aligns with your S&S journey that you are sticking to despite the aforementioned temptation.

My suggestion to allow you to stick with S&S but sorta "program hop" is to ensure you get your required S&S movements for the day and then add a bit more of whatever. Maybe snatch or press the KB up and get down with it. Or bent press and get down. What about hand to hand swings? What about getting up and then lowering to the rack and pressing? Or getup and lowering to the rack and squatting? As long as you meet your S&S requirements you are sticking to S&S. I believe that this approach will keep you on S&S, milking its vast benefits, whilst satisfying your urge to try something else.

My awesome, as you all know, training partner, @Anna C milked S&S for several months. I'm sure she could suggest a thing or three.
 
I think the overall theme of “do what works for you” is the best takeaway from what to do. I personally program hopped like crazy in my 20s, never making any meaningful progress.

Looking back, my main issue with program hopping was analysis paralysis. I spent too much time trying to optimize programming and not enough time reaping the benefits of the program. Once I realized I was my own worst enemy with overthinking programs, I suddenly started getting the benefits of the programs. If only I had listened to Dan John years ago about running the program as written.
 
I spent too much time trying to optimize programming and not enough time reaping the benefits of the program.
this ^^^

I once saw Brian Alsruhe asked what to do to grow big legs. He replied, "find and follow a program that will get you to a 500lb squat. Your legs will grow."

It's something I see some trainers post about in social media lately. For instance, there are some people looking for the "optimal way to maximize the hypertrophy gains of their illiac lat fibers." Unless you're already very well built, just get strong at weighted pullups. A very simple way of looking at it is to find somethng that is challenging and do it until it's easier, then make it challenging again. Repeat. For anyone not already at a significant strength level, looking for the "optimal program" is probably a waste of time. Just follow some programs until you're strong, then worry about "maximizing" it. As for "how strong is strong?" I like what I read Pavel (I think) said once: (paraphrasing) if you have to ask if you're strong, you aren't yet. I recall back to when I couldn't budge my 24kg in the press and reading that 24-32kg was considered "intermediate."

Staying more on topic, and adding to my previous reply: if strength is the goal, then strength programs are the way. I have noticed that when I stick to something long enough to reap the rewards, it becomes more easy to stay on track. It's when I am not seeing progress that I get the urge to program hop. So for me, at least, there is an element of patience.
 
It's normal to struggle with this to some extent - not everyone can stay on the same program for 12+ weeks. I can do it, but it's also not my favorite thing. I've become more of a fan of block training as a result (see RTK): 2-4 weeks of grinds, 2-4 weeks of ballistics (with built-in progressive overload, etc.) and 1-2 weeks of "variety/deload" between 12 week cycles.
 
A very simple way of looking at it is to find somethng that is challenging and do it until it's easier, then make it challenging again.
You just described progressive overload. This works incredibly well for a wide variety of goals and for just about anyone. It was the heart of bro lifting for a long time. Pick a weight you can do a couple sets of 8, now get those to a couple sets of 12. Now use a heavier weight and do it again.

My best friend is a very jacked 220 and he STILL basically does that, he’s just using 120lb dumbbells for benching or 400lbs+ for squats. The principle of progressive overload doesn’t change.
 
Thank you everyone for the responses, I'm still honestly taking it all in. It's so funny because the best results I ever had were when I knew nothing at all. I only had 'Enter the Kettlebell' and following that delivered because I wasn't distracted.

This is the first time in my life that I didn't change course when things got tough and for that, I'm proud of myself. I'm sticking with it.

Thanks again!
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom