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Kettlebell Programming the hardstyle c&j

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ntapsak

ntapsak

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This has been on my mind for awhile--both because I am fascinated with girevoy sport and because I have been toying around with the single-bell jerk for a few weeks on my off-days to the point where it has become one of my favorite lifts. It's use in GS is obvious, but a little less so for us hardstyle practitioners, and I wonder why. Regarding the use of it, I see some mention conditioning, some strength and/or explosive power, and some even muscle building. To me it seems the goal of programming the mp is obvious, as are the ballistic lifts. But the hardstyle c&j kinda feels like a red-headed stepchild of numerous ballistics. It's hard for me to figure out where it fits in and it doesn't seem really popular or talked about a lot.

This article, for example, is the most concrete example I can find, and with a single bell no less: The Ultimate Kettlebell Exercise for Martial Conditioning | StrongFirst. I also recall seeing Geoff Neupert mention, I forget where, that in some of his programs, the double c&p can be replaced with the c&j if one has the requisite mobility, which many do not possess. Aside from these, I find it hard to dig up more concrete info on how to use the c&j and for what, leading me to ask a slew of questions:

How exactly does one program c&j? straight sets? timed sets? max reps? I'm sure there are various ways.
What are some concrete examples of hardstyle c&j - centered training (or is it just not as favored with HS practitioners as with GS athletes)?
How would one program the one-arm jerk differently than the double? is there any advantage to doing it with one bell?

If anyone is really familiar with both the GS and HS c&j technique, I would also be interested to hear your input on how those differ. I'm just curious about all things kettlebell jerk. Personally, I'm still working on Simple, but I'll be there pretty soon.

Thanks, all!
 
ntapsak said:
This has been on my mind for awhile--both because I am fascinated with girevoy sport and because I have been toying around with the single-bell jerk for a few weeks on my off-days to the point where it has become one of my favorite lifts. It's use in GS is obvious, but a little less so for us hardstyle practitioners, and I wonder why. Regarding the use of it, I see some mention conditioning, some strength and/or explosive power, and some even muscle building. To me it seems the goal of programming the mp is obvious, as are the ballistic lifts. But the hardstyle c&j kinda feels like a red-headed stepchild of numerous ballistics. It's hard for me to figure out where it fits in and it doesn't seem really popular or talked about a lot.

This article, for example, is the most concrete example I can find, and with a single bell no less: The Ultimate Kettlebell Exercise for Martial Conditioning | StrongFirst. I also recall seeing Geoff Neupert mention, I forget where, that in some of his programs, the double c&p can be replaced with the c&j if one has the requisite mobility, which many do not possess. Aside from these, I find it hard to dig up more concrete info on how to use the c&j and for what, leading me to ask a slew of questions:

How exactly does one program c&j? straight sets? timed sets? max reps? I'm sure there are various ways.
What are some concrete examples of hardstyle c&j - centered training (or is it just not as favored with HS practitioners as with GS athletes)?
How would one program the one-arm jerk differently than the double? is there any advantage to doing it with one bell?

If anyone is really familiar with both the GS and HS c&j technique, I would also be interested to hear your input on how those differ. I'm just curious about all things kettlebell jerk. Personally, I'm still working on Simple, but I'll be there pretty soon.

Thanks, all!
Click to expand...

It seems Pavel et al. may provide you with some good answers soon according to this thread...

Kettlebell - Kettlebells StrongFirst

EDIT - Thanks, @Mikeperry, for starting this thread on our forum over a year ago! I have updated it with a link to the course itself https://bjjfanatics.com/products/kettlebell-strong-first-by-pavel-tsatsouline in order to make it easier for people to find. Steve Freides, Chief Moderator...
www.strongfirst.com
 
I feel only qualified to answer a few. The one arm for me is less out of the body. Works more anti rotational strength. (Judo). Where the double May have a bit more of a risk factor. I love both. I use clean and jerks more in the lower reps. Build up sets before reps than start over with a higher rep since it is a fixed weight. I am not an expert. Playing around I did a clean and jerk with a 95 lbs dumbbell at 165 lbs a heavy not 1 rm. 70 lbs used to feel heavy. Not so much any more and can do more reps. Hope this helps at all. Think someone gave me advice on this exercise here and I rolled with it
 
Generally snatch is preferred over C&J. C&P has a completely independent dynamic from C&J. Having very little experience with GS, jerks in SFG terms try to maintain tension in torso area as there’s no margin for saving energy expenditure.
That said, I love the timed set in conjunction with Hard Style jerks whether be single double or clean & jerk (single/double).
 
From memory the double clean and jerk can be slotted into the KB Strong framework by G N. Alternatively it could work within the A+A approach.
 
here's a nice idea how to program double clean and jerk:
There's no mention of the overall volume, but I think you cannot go wrong with the delta principle.

My two cents on the lift: when it comes to clean and jerks I find myself torn. It's a very comprehensive movement: ballistic pull+ballistic push. I also enjoy it very much. However, objective being repeatable power, why c&j if one can snatch? Or, to make it more open for debate, in what regard could a single/double clean and jerk be superior to snatch?
 
@ntapsak The ballistic blocks in Return of the Kettlebell (ROTK) are focused on Double C&J.

You are supposed to train them in ladders, very similar to RoP but with double the reps:
2,4,6 (12 reps)
2,4,6,8 (20 reps)
2,4,6,8,10 (30 reps)

You start with 3x2,4,6, got o 5x2,4,6 and from there you progress to the higher rung ladders. This is the hard day. On the medium and light day you finish your ladders one rung shorter and use a lighter bell with one of your arms.
 
conor78 said:
From memory the double clean and jerk can be slotted into the KB Strong framework by G N. Alternatively it could work within the A+A approach.
Click to expand...
So, like a 1-1 replacement of the presses with jerks? They don't seem very popular to be used in A+A. As I understand, to get the real endurance benefit of A+A, you really can't go more than 10-ish seconds on your given exercise. That wouldn't be many double jerk reps, though maybe single, right?


Pasibrzuch said:
My two cents on the lift: when it comes to clean and jerks I find myself torn. It's a very comprehensive movement: ballistic pull+ballistic push. I also enjoy it very much. However, objective being repeatable power, why c&j if one can snatch? Or, to make it more open for debate, in what regard could a single/double clean and jerk be superior to snatch?
Click to expand...
Perhaps in total weight the jerk could compete with the snatch. To start off you could probably jerk a heavier weight than you could snatch, and the total volume for a double jerk would be more than snatch volume, unless, of course, you're one of those people who regularly snatches something like a 36kg bell.
 
Pasibrzuch said:
here's a nice idea how to program double clean and jerk:
There's no mention of the overall volume, but I think you cannot go wrong with the delta principle.

My two cents on the lift: when it comes to clean and jerks I find myself torn. It's a very comprehensive movement: ballistic pull+ballistic push. I also enjoy it very much. However, objective being repeatable power, why c&j if one can snatch? Or, to make it more open for debate, in what regard could a single/double clean and jerk be superior to snatch?
Click to expand...

Yes, the I go, You go approach demonstrated here works well too.
 
As far as I know S Endurance has protocols that use the C/J and AA training is part of that approach.
I remember @Anna C referencing this some time back. Anna also is very knowledgable about this approach. She may chime in. i have used KB Strong with CP and using the loading parameters out works off I could definitely see how the double clean and jerk would work.
 
barrak said:
It seems Pavel et al. may provide you with some good answers soon according to this thread...

Kettlebell - Kettlebells StrongFirst

EDIT - Thanks, @Mikeperry, for starting this thread on our forum over a year ago! I have updated it with a link to the course itself https://bjjfanatics.com/products/kettlebell-strong-first-by-pavel-tsatsouline in order to make it easier for people to find. Steve Freides, Chief Moderator...
www.strongfirst.com
Click to expand...
Now I realize I should've kept up with this thread. Just looked through the whole thing, great discussion. I'll keep an eye out for when this program comes out.
 
Full disclosure...I've been fascinated by the c &j but haven't practiced it due to my endless issues with shoulder mobility/flexibility. Here are (as far as I know) the most established hardstyleC & J programs

RMF by Neupert
Berserk! by Hector G (google Strongashec - This program is a little like RMF meets Q&D)

Giant by Neupert can be adapted to the C&J
Strong! by Neupert can be adapted to the C&J
 
Tbe RMBFB of Neupert's is a killer! Can be done with either the double push press or jerk. Hector G. has a nice clean and press program wherein he indicates you could sub out the clean and jerk.
 
C&J works great for A+A training! For single arm I'd recommend doing triples roughly on the minute, for double c&j I'd recommend doubles.

As for GS vs HS, very different movements. GS priorities efficient movements, and getting rest *during* the exercise where as HS encourages maximal power. For general use I definitely recommend HS. In addition, it's a little less technical and the mobility requirements aren't as severe.
 
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