Bodyweight progressions to hspu

[305pelusa]

Hello,


HSPU is one of my 2017 goals ! So I'll try to work on it with dedication. The "kick" start sounds far harder to me at the moment eh eh

From the crow, what I notice is that I can slowly straighten my legs to put them on a vertical position. However, once they are vertical, I still have bent arms. I can hold this position around 15s.

Do not straighten the legs. Keep them as tucked as possible, and open them at the same rate as the hands. Straightening the legs early on is called "planching" the Handstand, and makes things unnecessarily harder.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Depends on how good your shoulder mobility and Handstand is hehe.

Eh eh I enjoy your answer

Do not straighten the legs. Keep them as tucked as possible, and open them at the same rate as the hands. Straightening the legs early on is called "planching" the Handstand, and makes things unnecessarily harder.

Great tip ! Thanks ! I'll tell you this evening how it goes in my log.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[pet']

Hello,

@305pelusa
I followed your advice of straightening my legs at the same rates as my arms. I think...it works ! Then I wanted to thank you for the tip, again

Well, I held the position only 2s but the test was a success. I wanted to see how it goes, how I felt with this method.

Now, I have to find the perfect pace : not too slow, not too fast to do not lose balance when I am in the straight position. I guess it will come with patience and practice. I have all year long to do it

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Karen Smith]

Depends on how good your shoulder mobility and Handstand is hehe.

Agree completely.. shoulder/tspine mobility is important to maintain a straight pull handstand and Balance is key. I personally have never seen anyone do a straight handstand full range freestanding push up. I have always seen the body curve because freestanding you have to look at the ground (or so It seems from any who have every done them at the certs that I have taught) But I have seen them come back into a straight body as they reach the top of the press.

 

[Karen Smith]

I tried to scan this thread... hope I did not miss anything important, if so please tag me in the comments.
As for why do we teach the face away handstand Push up vs face the wall....
1. It is safer for most people in case they were to lose balance.
2. Facing the wall gets you so much closer to the wall if in the straight body which does not allow for the best arm position. We refer the 45 degree press (more carry over to other pressing we do in SFG). If people are trying to face the wall, they could potentially widen into more of a 90 degrees press (like barbell) as a compensation because they fear hitting the elbows into the wall or again losing balance and falling backwards.
3. In addition, as I commented above most people (at least those I have seen) do not maintain hollow body or straight body if doing or attempting a free standing HSPU.

If any of you can do this please share a video as I am open to any and all thoughts /discussion as we are always wanting to continue improving the courses and certifications. And as someone mention above, I would love to eventually have a level 2 SFB.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I keep going on my journey toward freestanding HSPU, and keep using all the wise advices I receive here.

So, this evening I succeeded 3 times to go from the crow to a freestanding position and kept the position some seconds.

What I noticed:
=> I feel I tend to bend a little at lumbar level. It helps me to maintain balance. I am not bent as a bow, though. I guess that putting tension in core and glutes would help to correct that and maintain a straight position ?
=> I noticed the significant role of the fingers. I find easier to maintain balance by slightly bending them (only the palms and the extremities of the fingers touch the ground). That way, it is easier to make vary the tension you put in your left / right fingers to maintain balance. I would almost say that the instinct rules the finger pression.

Then, I am very happy with the beginning of this move which seems to progress relatively fast and seems promising. I will keep working on it because I enjoy working on both strength and balance. I dedicate a 10 minutes work almost every evening to that move.

I hope I tell you soon that I passed my first freestanding HSPU thanks to you !

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[305pelusa]

1. it is safer for most people incase they were to lose balance.

This is about the only argument I see for it. I concede that if you don't spend a good amount of time learning how to bail safely, then yes, obviously back-to-wall is a way to build similar strength, without having to learn how to bail.

2. facing the wall gets you so much closer to the wall if in the straight body which does not allow for the best arm position. We refer the 45 degree press (more carry over to other pressing we do in SFG). If people are trying to face the wall, they could potentially widen into more of a 90 degrees press (like barbell) as a compensation because they fear hitting the elbows into the wall or again losing balance and falling backwards.

STW HSPUs are done with hands roughly 6-12 inches away from the wall (unlike a regular hold, where you want to be as close as possible). Way more than needed to clear the elbows.

The alignment can go either way. I think STW HSPUs reinforce elbows in front because most of the weight is front of your body. The Back-to-wall doesn't since the weight is behind the hands. It feels like more of a Bridge. If you're diligent, it isn't an issue though. I've seen good/bad elbow positions in both variations.

3. In addition, as I commented above most people (at least those I have seen) do not maintain hollow body or straight body if doing or attempting a free standing HSPU.

if any of you can do this please share a video as I am open to any and all thoughts /discussion as we are always wanting to continue improving the courses and certifications. And as someone mention above, I would love to eventually have a level 2 SFB.

I mean maybe most people can't because it's hard, but it certainly is possible. If you look at my video on post #35, I think the first rep (not second though) could be considered straight-body. Even then, I'm very new to HSPU work in general. People more seasoned than myself can do even more than that. Here's Jim Bathurst doing 90 degree push-ups. This is a super deep variation of the HSPU where you go into a bent arm planche at the bottom. If you focus from the moment he presses up and onwards on his first rep, he clearly maintains an excellent straight, if not hollow, position:


Obviously, that kind of strength and control can only be built through STW. Jim came out a few years ago retracting his tutorial on the HS (he recommended back to wall) for the STW variation he teaches nowadays in his seminars. It isn't just him. Everyone who is anyone (GMB, Sommers, the Reddit community) is training them this way now. Wouldn't be surprised if Kavadlo and the PCC made the change as well.

Anyways, I don't get anything from having you guys change. I don't win anything from convincing anybody or trying to make a point right? There's been a large change in the calisthenics community with this in the past 5 years. I'm just saying there's huge advantages and that SF could consider it. Or not, whatever is good too hehe.

 

[Tarzan]

Yeah, I'll second that opinion, all the cool kids seem to be doing it STW these days.
I saw this last year and made the switch too. He explains why it's preferable at around 3:05 - 3:25

 

[pet']

Hello,

When he faces the wall, he is capable of maintaing a perfectly straight core, and this reproduces very well the free standing version.

I guess he also does a lot of core training to get this stance ?

Related to HSPU back to the wall, it is possible to get into the HS position, and then "walking" until being perfectly (or almost perfectly) parallel to the wall.That way, you do not bend.

Personnally and from instinct, I started STW because it mimics better. Then, all the videos I saw were BTW so...i reoriented my move. I guess I would not had to do that

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[pet']

Hello,

Oh sure hehe. I'm glad. How is that going?

There are going pretty well actually.

I manage every evening a 10 minutes window, dedicated to them.

I start from my crow and spread (or at least try to spread) both arms and legs at the same rate.

Currently, it is a little inconstant. I guess it will come with practice and patience. I now get a handstand pretty stable for 5 seconds. This is what I get "at least". Sometimes it is more, never less, but I always consider my worst performance as my base

I really enjoy working on that move ! I understand why you also work a lot on it ! Plus it also involves a lot my core, meaning much more than I would have expected.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Karen Smith]

So after watching the videos posted I would like to clarify...When I said straight body, I was speaking of bodying staying vertical. Yes, your body can be straight (held and moved as one unit via tension) doing them like these videos but the freestanding hspu's I have seen by a few at the certs and the videos posted in this tread the body position becomes more angled.

At the SFB we teach the BTW with eyes looking forward (mimic a standing military press) vs the videos here for Freestanding where the eye position changes looking more toward the ground and then the body begins to more out of the vertical position.

Did that clarify what I meant when I previously said "straight body"?

So we teach crown of the head toward the ground to form the 3rd position of a triangle (hands being other two positions) rather than the eyes or even chin coming down toward the 3rd position.

 

[305pelusa]

So after watching the videos posted I would like to clarify...When I said straight body, I was speaking of bodying staying vertical. Yes, your body can be straight (held and moved as one unit via tension) doing them like these videos but the freestanding hspu's I have seen by a few at the certs and the videos posted in this tread the body position becomes more angled.

Karen, if you think a little bit about it, this makes sense. If you want to keep your elbows in front of you (which is a requirement if you want to have any chance of balancing as well as just shoulder safety), then the body must be angled and the head must come forward somewhat.

Just like in a squat, you have to angle the body somewhat. No other way around it.

I'm a bit unsure as to why you wouldn't want to train it this way since the beginning.

 

[Karen Smith]

I agree you would want to angle the body to balance if your goal is a free standing hspu. We do not teach the freestanding hspu at the certification, a few who have attended have been able to do them but it is not in the curriculum. We teach many progressions for a wall supported hspu that will have tremendous carry over to military pressing.

So I can see the benefit of training them differently depending on your end goal. If the end goal is to do freestanding then balance training is a must, and face the wall can be done but as per the videos posted if you are training STW then you will be further away and angled vs the extremely close to the wall hollow handstand that is often seen via Gymnastics bodies.

Both have their place in my opinion.

I have not trained for a freestanding HSPU, so I am always open to thoughts, opinions and advise from those who have.

 

[305pelusa]

I agree you would want to angle the body to balance if your goal is a free standing hspu. We do not teach the freestanding hspu at the certification, a few who have attended have been able to do them but it is not in the curriculum. We teach many progressions for a wall supported hspu that will have tremendous carry over to military pressing.

So I can see the benefit of training them differently depending on your end goal. If the end goal is to do freestanding then balance training is a must, and face the wall can be done but as per the videos posted if you are training STW then you will be further away and angled vs the extremely close to the wall hollow handstand that is often seen via Gymnastics bodies.

Both have their place in my opinion.

I have not trained for a freestanding HSPU, so I am always open to thoughts, opinions and advise from those who have.

I think we might be having a small miscommunication.

The freestanding HSPU must be performed with an angle. This is an absolute must due to balancing concerns.

With a wall, you can be vertical with either STW or BTW. You simply have to pike the hips enough. The only difference between them is that to get balance, you have to pike and hollow out for one, and arch and extend the hips for the other one. The rest of the mechanics are the same.

Here's an example of a STW HSPU done with a pretty vertical torso and crown-to-the-floor. Note how piking the hips is all she needs. It's as easy as that.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Since I train daily to HSPU, I prefer the crow to begin. I find this method is a bit more spine-friendly because all the weight is supported by the shoulders and arms, which are stronger than neck muscles. Plus, it obliges you to have your hands / arms which mimics the kettlebell press. So you have less balance issues, at least at the beginning of the move.

Kind regards,

PEt'

 

[pet']

Hello,

Here is a Barstarzz's video for some free standing HSPU tips


Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Harald Motz]

I need to be discussed. Yesterday I did some side view filming getting from the crow to handstand, and I am not really content.

To have a decent aligned handstand is not that simple. In the past, I always looked to the ground. The neck is extended, and so does my lumbar. Yesterday I played the first time as @Karen Smith made a point in one of her articles to look in front. It is harder (for me, because it is a new maneuver), but seems to be better, to get an aligned handstand, without that much bending.

Also it is a question of t-spine extension and shoulder flexibility to really get the straightened arms directly under my body.

Input highly appreciated.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Harald Motz
I am quite new to this move, so it is pretty sure my comment will me 'naive' or whatever. But, because you helped me with some tips, I want to try to help you a little too

You alignment @2'45'' or @3''05 seems good. Indeed, at this time, you neck is aligned with your spine. As long as you are tucked, there is no issue.

However, as soon as you start to straighten you legs, you start to lose this good alignment and then watch the floor. This makes you bend, so you lose balance and fall (nice bridge by the way).

Did you try to engage slighly more your core (easier said than done, I admit) and slowly straighten you legs after straigthen you arm. Indeed, because you are able to maintain good aligment while tucked, maybe it could be an option to straighten your arms in tuck position, and only then your legs. Doing that slowly permits to strongly engage the core (at least for me).

Nonetheless, I am sure far more skilled and experienced people will help you a lot more than me.

Kind regards,

Pet

 

[305pelusa]

@Harald Motz: If I may throw in my 2 cents.

It is clear to me that your Handstand comes from a lot of back-to-wall practice. Maybe I'm wrong but judging from the arch and the way you bail. Also, I don't think tucking your chin is helping much.

The issue isn't mobility or strength. From your bridge, I can tell you can open your shoulders. The issue is from activation. If you're mostly used to keeping closed shoulders and arched back, feeling the weight by the fingers, that's what you will always default to.

You can try to re-align your Handstands, but it makes more sense to me to just train them on the wall again, focusing on open shoulders and the hollow position. Yeah, it means swallowing a lot of pride though.

I few other things:
1) Do not bail by going onto a bridge. This is one big reason as to why you keep your feet so back, to help you catch a fall. Learn to twist away and land normally. This is a prereq for learning the HS STW but if you mostly do BTW, it's something you might have little experience with. You will never be comfortable having your feet vertical, if you need them all the way arched back to catch you.

2) Do not use the Crow to get to the HS. It will encourage closed shoulders (because that's how you start) and bent arms (which you seem to have from time to time). Kicking into the HS takes time to master because you don't start with the balance but once you do master it, it will be the ticket to a very effortless and straight HS. Think of it as an investment.

Bent arm pressing (like Crow to HS) is actually rarely recommended, if ever, in gymnastics because it leads to bad Handstands. This is very telling.

3) Improve shoulder mobility and core strength. Like I said, activation is important. You should be training your hollow body hard (Front Lever is good, but whatever floats your boat). Band Dislocates are a must.

For reference, if you train STW since Day 1, a lot of these issues fix themselves. Here's my current HS:

Still some work to be done, but it is easier from here because it is just a matter of opening the shoulders a bit more, and hollowing out a tiny bit more.

Hope that helps and I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm just bashing you. I truly mean it in the most helpful way

 

[Harald Motz]

Hope that helps and I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm just bashing you. I truly mean it in the most helpful way

there is a proverb in the tao te king: true words are not nice, nice words are not true. I asked for criticism and advice.
I take that in the most helpful way, Thanks.

I was just not amused about my handstand, as it was the first time, I had a view from the side.