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Old Forum PTTP: Eating and carbohydrates

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dk

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I've been doing PTTP (deadlift+bench) for the past 6 months or so (some time off for accidental overtraining and vacation).  Progress is slow but I am making progress. On a recent cycle, I noticed that when I started adding carbs to my diet (keeping the fat/protein intake the same) that I was making a lot more progress. However, I also gained some unwanted fat weight (alongside muscle). Prior to that my progress was very slow and my diet included very few carbohydrates (but tons of fat and protein). So my questions are:

1. Should I be able to continue making progress on my lifts without gaining weight? I'm currently 6'2" 187lbs and my deadlift PR is 315x2 and bench PR is 185x2. I feel that I should definitely be able to lift more at my weight (especially bench) but perhaps I am still too skinny for my height? I would definitely prefer to be <200lbs. The ultimate goal is to be able to deadlift over 500 and bench 315.

2. Assuming that I don't have to gain more weight, do you recommend that I change my diet to include more carbs and less fat? Is there something special about carbs in terms of strength training?

Thanks!
 
There's not enough history or contextual info here, Dan.  And, nutrition is a very individual thing, not the kind of subject for a general forum.

That said, generally (which may not apply to you):

1) yes, and yes.

2) maybe, and no

-Al
 
Folks,

Let me clarify the above here ... when I said,  "not the kind of subject for a general forum", I didn't mean general nutrition / biochem questions, I meant individualized and specific approaches.

-Al
 
Response to specific nutritional variable can certainly vary from one person to another, but I have a suggestion that should should apply across the board: restrict your large doses of carbohydrate to the meal immediately following your training. Skeletal muscle most insulin sensitive at this point, so you will preferentially move glucose into muscle, with very little lipid synthesis. I usually aim for around 200 g after heavy training, and keep carbs pretty low all other times and it works well.

One other thing: 6 months of PTTP with deadlift and bench seems like a long time without switching things up or introducing some variety. Perhaps a cycle with a bit more volume, or at least experimenting with some squat/pull movements in PTTP to change things up?
 
Thanks for the responses.

Al, I'm sorry if the post was against the rules. If so, feel free to delete or suggest for deletion. The non-individualized form of my question is: Can I expect to make large gains with a strength training program such as PTTP with very low carbohydrate intake? Specifically for myself I was also wondering if I had reached a point where further gains would require weight gain.

Scientist, I like that suggestion. I will need to find a way to fit in a large amount of carbs into my post-workout meal. Previously I don't think I've eaten 200g of carbs in a whole day much less in a meal.  Also, why do you think 6 months of PTTP is too long? My goal is specifically to increase my deadlift and bench press. I don't really care about squats or anything else. Since that is my goal, does it really make sense to train other movements? I do do pull-ups as well but mainly with the goal of strength-endurance. I was thinking to continue with PTTP for a lot longer...
 
Dan,

I think the deadlift is a great movement, and you probably never need to train the squat for strength. You should at least practice the goblet squat to learn the movement, though. For upper body work, I think variety is needed at some point. The shoulder is capable of movement in many planes, and imbalances will likely be a problem if you only train one movement in one plane. Consider pull-ups, presses, dips, rows etc... as options. Nothing wrong with PTTP, but cycle another program in every once in a while. You could do 531 without the squats, perhaps.
 
Dan,

It's not against forum rules ... I just believe that specific nutrition is too individual, needing a lot of background and a relationship between the provider and the learner, and follow up consults for adjustment based on reactions.  The info to you is unique and may not apply to anyone else - so the forum model doesn't fit here - IMO.

I agree with Scientist's template, though the 200g of carbs post session is very individual.

Yes, you can make significant gains on low-carb eating.

You may have to gain weight - trial and error will preside here.

Heavy swings bring up your DL - in some cases, more so than the actual DL.

I agree to work the upper body push/pull in multiple planes ... but dips?  This one is iffy.  Depends upon shoulder health, and anatomical inheritances.
 
Al,

Rings made all the difference for me. I can do reps on bars, but going heavy never felt right. The freedom to rotate and determine width throughout the movement on rings is a big change. The stability takes getting used to, though. It is obviously not a critical movement, though, and I'm not saying anyone absolutely needs it.
 
Scientist,

I've seen that as well, but, as always, YMMV.  I agree that it's not critical but a nice option if it works for someone.
 
I'm wondering if this can be discussed in more general terms, understanding Al's point.

In general, I like the concept of low-carb, in that you are using your bodies natural and massive stores of energy.  I have just bought and am reading "The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance" and it seems a little extreme.  I understand that it would seem that way as it is a big change, and I agree that it requires a sharp change (so super low carb) to force the body to switch to fat and re-learn how to use fat primarily as its energy source.

Yet is it healthy?  I wonder, considering they mention mineral supplements (of all things sodium!) might be necessary.  Fibre too is a question, vitamins and minerals in general, the bodies alkaline balance?  It just doesn't intuitively seem like a natural way of eating.  Maybe for a period to bring the body back into balance, especially for a diabetic or other health problems.  Superficial body asthetics ?

Are there other authors/resources recommended to maybe give some balance to this discussion?
 
Matt,

This is exactly why nutrition is individual - because it is a fast moving target.  What worked once may not work today.

Read Taubes for a general overview.  You already have a good book.  Note that there is a huge metabolic difference between VLC and LC.  And cyclical feeding works for some too.

In my experience both personally and as a clinician, gut biome health is the target.  LC or VLC as a template gets many most of the way there, then adjustments can get them across the finish line.

Plants and animals are on the menu on these plans ... so don't think Atkins, or Southbeach, or whatever ... no processed food, low glucose loads - that's all.  No different from any other animal in nature.

Tech and society have created a tainted food chain from start to finish.  Peel back what you think you know and take the red pill.

Troublesome, I know.
 
Thanks Al - I will investigate as you recommend.  What you're saying sounds like what I intuitively feel is more legit.  I have experimented a little personally over the years too so have some personal experience.  Yet I really appreciate yours.  Thanks.

 
 
Dan, I disagree with some of what's been said in this thread so far.

You can discuss nutrition on a non-individual basis.  Just like everyone can swing a kettlebell, everyone can understand and apply some basic principles of nutrition.  You write, "...when I started adding carbs to my diet (keeping the fat/protein intake the same)  that I was making a lot more progress. However, I also gained some unwanted fat weight (alongside muscle)."

This isn't surprising - if I read what you wrote correctly, you increased the amount of food you eat, and you gained weight.  That's a pretty normal, natural reaction - more food, same everything else, you get bigger.  The classic pattern for improving strength and/or body composition is:  eat more while you lift and hope to gain mostly muscle and expect to gain a little fat, too, then diet while still lifting and hope to lose mostly fat but expecting to lose a little muscle.  At the end of a cycle of that, you've hopefully improved your body composition, and you can tweak the above to result in the same overall weight, or a gain, or a loss.

You ask, "Should I be able to continue making progress on my lifts without gaining weight?"  There is no certain answer to that but remember that around here, we view strength as a skill - if you can improve your skill at your chosen lifts, you can indeed become stronger without gaining weight.  Some lifts seem to have more potential for skill-based gains than others - the deadlift is one of those with the highest potential for strength gain without weight gain, and that's why it's the lift of choice for many of us who choose to remain in our current weight class (including me).

To improve your lifting skill, you would do well to work with one of our instructors, take one of our courses, or both.  If you need help finding an instructor or a course, just ask.  I cannot stress this point enough - strength is a skill, and there is nothing like improving your lifting skill and reaping gains, sometimes instantly, because you learned how to lift better.

The specifics of your diet will depend on lots of things; you've done some experimenting, so continue to try different approaches, read up on various diets, and see what you think.  What's "special" about carbs is a lengthy discussion - suffice it to say that eating whole foods, from as close to the source as possible, is best.   Too many carbs and they end up on your waist line, too few and you feel miserable unless you are specifically trying a very low carb diet, in which case I recommend you follow that diet's guidelines as given; personally, I don't care for them.

Based on what you've said, I'd say keep eating hearty, keep improving your lifts, and when you feel like the scale has hit the highest number you want to see, cut back on the food and plan to either stay where you're at or lose some if you feel you want to weight less at that point.   And get yourself some high quality instruction to help accomplish the thing you'd like most to accomplish,  getting stronger without getting much bigger.

Hope that helps.

-S-
 
Thanks for the reply Steve. I think you understood my post very well.

I also like the view of strength as a skill. That's why I follow Pavel's PTTP program. And that's why I was surprised that simply eating more food (in my case carbs) resulted in drastically improved gains. It leads me to one of the following conclusions:

1. Since my previous diet was very low-carb, the addition of carbs specifically has allowed me to improve my strength. In other words, there's something unique about carbs.

2. The addition of extra calories, regardless of macronutrient breakdown, has allowed me to improve my strength. In other words, I simply wasn't eating enough before.

3. It's all in my head. Eating more gave me more confidence that I would be able to lift more weight.

Right now I am thinking that it was probably a combination of #1 and #3. Do you agree? I will experiement with a more balanced diet, higher in carbs than before but not so high in calories as to worry about gaining too much fat. Of course, it will be using whole, natural foods. As stated earlier, my goal is simply to deadlift and bench press more weight without gaining too much fat. I could be comfortable around 200lbs but I'm not too interested in bulking/cutting cycles or bodybuilding in general, just strength.

I would certainly be interested in working with an instructor who understands the SF and PTTP principles. Is there any list other than the one at the top of the page? Not too many results found there in my area.

Thanks again!
 
Dan,

The search engine doesn't work well ... either ask here for instructors in your area, or you'll need to scroll through the directory of instructors page by page.  Sorry.

-Al
 
1. Since my previous diet was very low-carb, the addition of carbs specifically has allowed me to improve my strength. In other words, there’s something unique about carbs.
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I think you've found that out first-hand and I agree with you.   You can do some reading on ketosis - my experience has been that if you wholeheartedly embrace the idea of being in ketosis at least some of the time, you can accomplish great things - I say this from the experience of others, not from having done it myself. OTOH, if you manage to keep carbs at a certain kind of low level, you can simultaneously not be in ketosis and not getting enough carbs for normal body function, and that is miserable - and I have experienced this myself more than once.

 
2. The addition of extra calories, regardless of macronutrient breakdown, has allowed me to improve my strength. In other words, I simply wasn’t eating enough before.
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Eating your way through a sticking point in training is tried-and-true, and again, you've just experienced this for yourself first-hand.

 
3. It’s all in my head. Eating more gave me more confidence that I would be able to lift more weight.
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I don't think this is so - you ate more and also ate more in a manner that benefited your lifting - good for you.

 

Your #1 and #2 are both true.  People can lift with very low carbs - this we know to be  fact, but we also know it's generally a more popular approach for people who are concerned with body composition, not strength.   The people I know who've been most successful have taken a cyclic approach to their low-carb eating, with one or two days per week where they "carb up" and often do a big workout the next day to take advantage of the carbs in their system.  You call look up "targeted ketogenic diet" and "cyclic ketogenic diet" and do some reading - you have those two approaches and several more when it comes to low carb dieting.

Tou have three choices overall as I see it:  do a better job of figuring out how to low carb your diet; or keep your carbs high enough to stay away from ketosis and yet not so high as to start wearing most of your carbs  on your waistline;  or eat lots of everything, let yourself continue to eat through sticking points, get as strong as you want to be, and then have a cutting phase where you try to lose the fat while keeping most of the muscle.

If you want help finding an instructor, you can reach me via the contact button on my web site, http://www.kbnj.com, and I will check around for you.

-S-
 
Al, Steve,

Great thread!  What do you guys consider "low carb" vs. "very low carb"? I know it will be depend on activity level, body mass etc, but for an average size dude on S&S what are your thoughts?

I get bad hypoglycemia (sleepy, brain fog) and my mental acuity has benefited by going with a low-carb, Paleo approach.  As a desk jockey by day, it is also one of the reasons I gravitate toward almost daily exercise, it seems to clean up the system and help my body regulate blood sugar and help me sleep better at night.  I'm ~15% BF, totally happy with that, so my goals are to get better performance in my strength training and daily life.

Lately, I seem to do OK on about 100g of carbs per day doing S&S almost daily with the 24kg.  When I was on the RoP in the fall I would back the heavy and medium days with upwards of 200g.  I felt better on the RoP because I think the waviness of the load and diet helped keep things in better tune.  I am not religious about any of this, I don't think low-carb is the end-all, be-all, just trying to find the formula that works well for me.

Any thoughts you have or books or other resources you could recommend would be appreciated.

Best,

Chris
 
Chris, sounds like you've got a good handle on things for yourself and you're doing just fine.  If it ain't broke ...

-S-
 
Steve,  I am doing much better since I cleaned up my diet ~2 years ago, but I'm still up and down.  I don't quite have it dialed in yet.

Best,

Chris

 
 
Chris,

I may be able to help with some of your specific questions. Ketone production is probably the best way to distinguish LC vs. VLC diets. To me, and LC diet is on in which you minimize carbohydrates to the point where glycogen stores are never full, but there is not significant ketone production. For most active men, this is somewhere between 75-125 g/day. If you keep reducing below that, eventually ketone levels will rise to deal with the absence of glucose. For me, that number is anything less than a 100g/day average. I may eat 150-200g of carbohydrate after a very heave training session, and then nearly zero for the next two days. It can be a bit of a pain, but I have found it to let me keep up my strength and size while eating as much as I want and staying around 12% BF. If all your training is moderate (S&S), then putting 100g on each days is a good idea. Some suggest putting most of those carbs in your bering meal and having an all protein/fat breakfast, and there are some data that support that idea.
 
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