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Old Forum PTTP: Eating and carbohydrates

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Just wondering Scientist what a bering meal is.  Can't work out the typo.  Evening?

 

One thing that irks me a little is that eating isn't meant to be scientific.  100g of carbs a day - who instinctively knows that?

I like some of the ideas of Ori Hofmekler about the role of hormones in regulating appetite etc. to naturally find this "100g" equivalent (my own words expressing how I understand some of his ideas).  As the idea of insulin being the one and only factor (in regulating fat storage or release) is scientifically questionable, despite it being a major factor.

I wonder too - ancient "wisdom" regarding diets which haven't been infiltrated by hidden agendas, seem to naturally have a higher portion of carbs. than a low-carb diet would.  Whole foods of course - think bread, grains, fruits and vegetables.

Another thought too - the majority if not all of us on here would have access to as much food as we want when we want.  What would our diets look like if we couldn't afford what we can, or didn't rely on supermarkets or fast food?
 
Matt,

Yes, it should be evening. Auto-correct on an iPad... I also agree that ideally, eating should not have to be made into a protocol with specific nutrient ratios. Here is the "problem" as I have thought about it:

1. You are right that we (in wealthy, industrialized nations) have an enormous surplus of food (even if it is mostly processed crap). If total caloric intake goes down, the percentage of carbohydrate likely isn't as big of a deal. That said, living on a lower caloric intake makes it hard to maintain much muscle. This is why all the photographs that we have to first contact with truly isolated hunter-gatherer peoples show men that are not that muscular, but lean and wiry. If you are ok with being medium sized and a bit hungry, then this is fine, and there is nothing wrong with it. If you want to be a bit larger and still lean, I think you have to be more careful.

2. Hormonal regulation of appetite is huge. Insulin is a large player immediately after a meal, but leptin is a major driver of appetite perception in the long-term, and many other hormones (GH, testosterone, cortisol, etc...)  also play a role that has not been completely defined.

3. As for an "ancient" diet, it is all over the map. Some peoples, like the Inuit, historically ate a nearly ketogenic, carb-free diet most of the year when vegetation was not an option. Others, like the Kitavans from Papua New Guinea ate a very high carbohydrate diet (but they were whole food carbs, like tubers, not refined and packaged with vegetable oil). Our body is adaptable to a wide variety of nutrient ratios, and no single one is perfect. Remember, too, that all of these people were likely very physically active throughout their normal day.

4. You mentioned breads and grains being a "whole food". I have to disagree: I don't know of any grain that can be eaten fresh like a fruit or vegetable. They all require carrying degrees of processing to be edible. Also, grains are very new as a human food. We have been walking the earth very close to our modern state for hundreds of thousands of years, but grains only became a staple food for human in the last few thousand. Also, when we did switch to a grain-based diet from agriculture, skeletal records indicate that people became shorter, weaker, and had many more dental problems. Grains are great for producing enough calories to feed 7 billion people and keep them alive, but they aren't the best option for any individual person if fruit/vegetable/tubers, and meat/eggs/fish are available.
 
Well said, Scientist.

To add, there is also the problem of most items in the supermarket not being "food", yet are advertised as such; and their affordable cost.  And, we have the ADA, and other organizations recommending nonsensical eating programs as if they received them atop Mt Sinai.

We have been deceived by the capitalist-driven industrial food complex that the gov't actually qualifies.

It's no wonder there is much confusion ... starving works, at any ratio of macronutrients and with any quality of nutrition.  And, if you fail - "it's your fault, you lazy pig ... move even more, and eat even less".  This is about the time that I get the "under the table" referral.

I believe that we "know" what the successful template is.  Part of individualizing this template is unlearning the nonsense, and eating more naturally - no weighing, no measuring, no excessive energy spent thinking about the how-to's of food.

Food choice first; then portion control, if necessary.  Focus on gut health and work your way outward.
 
Scientist,  thanks for this info.  It jives with my personal experience and experimentation.  Do you have a suggested reading list on this topic? Books, papers, etc. I have full access to academic journals.

Matt, I agree with you, everyone should tinker and find what works for them intuitively. Everyone is different, so tinkering is a good thing.  That has been my approach, but it is imperative to try to understand cravings as part of that process.  I don't get to caught up in counting grams or calories, I just think about when and how much fruit, rice, potato, etc I want and need to eat to feel good.

 
 
Do you have a suggested reading list on this topic?
Click to expand...

I'm not The Scientist, but I always recommend The Perfect Health Diet to everyone interested in diet and nutrition. PHD builds on the Paleo framework (like what The Scientist outlined) but goes much more in-depth about this like macronutrient ratio guidelines, micronutrient sufficiency, supplementation, and lifestyle factors (sleep, light exposure, optimizing circadian rhythms, etc). The authors are themselves scientists, and the book is filled with both the science and the reasoning behind their choices (and it's much, much more than just "because paleo"). There isn't much explicit mention of exercise, but I think everyone on this forum will be able to work out how the StrongFirst principles should be applied to the PHD paradigm.
 
Some really good answers here. Really good. Perhaps you should be able to judge the general maturity level of a board based on how a topic like nutrition is handled.
 
Following on from any recommended reading already mentioned I'd like to add Nate Miyaki's Intermittent Feast to the mix. He has done other nutrition books too but he too uses a paleo and sports nutrition template. You can use the more simplistic approach he puts forward or take it to a more fine-tuned version ie macronutrient ratio, x carbs per bodyweight based on goals, fat loss, muscle gain etc. The outline is available online and more details are included in the book but basically it is to eat light during the day and eat big in the evening post exercise. Really supporting what has already been stated here by many in this discussion. He is very helpful too if you want to pose any questions. Also, another book - not a diet as such but packed with info is Deep Nutrition: why your genes  need traditional food. This has got me started on bone marrow and bone broth, both of which I used to eat a lot of as a kid. The most nutrient rich food available and cheap to boot. My dog loves me to bits now as his bone quota has gone up a lot recently but I get the best ones! It's by Dr Catherine Shanahan, the outline of which is available online and if it interests you then you really should buy the book. Maybe not though if vegetarian! Apologies if endorsements aren't the thing for the forum generally but both encapsulate the essence of this discussion, so hope I'm forgiven if I've broke the rules somehow.
 
^ Ditto what Darren wrote.  The Jaminets nail it on almost every aspect in one book and one website.  Just customize it; for me that means dairy, glucose, creatine, gels.
 
Some great responses, thanks.  I agree Scientist about grains - and it is interesting "why" ( I wonder why myself - why such an apparently healthy food would have those effects).

I like your idea too Al to that we "know" what a successful template is individually, and about considering gut health.

Thanks for the book recommendation Darren (and Matt).  I have access to it and am curious - will check it out.   Don't think that you've broken any rules Alistair either.  Thanks for those suggestions.  Not sure I will gnaw on a bone anytime soon, but meat off the bone is always that bit tastier.
 
It is a bit hard for me to recommend much reading. I spend a great deal of time reading on the subject, but I rely almost exclusively on primary literature and reviews from publications that I have access to at my university. I like to see the original reports and data and draw my own conclusions, but most people don't have access to these publications without a fee, and the reading can be daunting if it is not a field you have a strong background in.

At this point, I think you have enough information to experiment a bit and see what works best for you. The details can be  interesting from an educational standpoint, but you probably don't need them for practical purposes. Just eat real good and train hard.
 
Chris,

I just noticed that you said you have access to most publications. I have a library on my commuter with over 3,000 PDFs. I could pick a few good ones and send them to you if you want. Any particular topic you are interested in? These papers can get terribly specific. You are not going to find much broad, general information.
 
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