Barbell PTTP ladders: when exactly to start them? Clarification needed.

[guardian7]

I am following the PTTP program (DL and benchpress) as written in the Barbell SFG course manual. However, I would like clarification when to start the ladders. In the manual,

you add five pounds to the bar each workout.
when you fail a set, you take a day off and reduce the weight 10-15 percent for your next workout.

What does this mean?
"If you fail to improve from one cycle to the next" switch to the ladder.

My question is what does fail to improve? Failing AGAIN at the point you were before failing the first time and taking a rest day and reducing the weight 10-15 percent? In short, exactly when do you start the ladder?

My next workout is Monday. I want to stay on schedule. It is going well. Didn't think deadlifting five days a week was doable but one week down seven more to go.

Also, what happens when you fail a set? Stop the workout completely and maybe do something else that won't interfere or try to complete the set at the weight before adding five. I failed my press on the first lift of the fifth straight day workout. I am being cautious though as I figure this is a slow and steady wins the race rather than an intense program. I already feel results after a week and want to stick to the program strictly.

I am only looking for the answer to this particular program. I don't have the PTTP book. Clarification appreciated.

 

[Bauer]

The ladder is not mentioned in PTTP. However switching to ladders with PTTP is mentioned in Beyond Bodybuilding in the context of breaking through plateaus.

With that in mind I would guess that you switch to ladders once your top weight of a given cycle fails to be heavier than the top weight of the cycle before. I think it is intended as a way to combine pure strength training (no more than 3 reps) with a little bit of volume without going to failure to maximise your limit strength.

And I would say you take one day off after the less-than-5-reps-top-set-day and start with the ladders without reducing the weight 10-15%. But I haven't attended SFL

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

@Bauer beat me to it, but I'm going to post anyway.

What does this mean?
"If you fail to improve from one cycle to the next" switch to the ladder.

I believe that refers to failing to improve after a cycle of at least 8 training sessions. So, if you get up to a 200lb bench press at the end of one cycle, take a couple of days off, begin another cycle at 150lbs and work back up to 200lbs but can go no further, then it's time to start using ladders.

'Failing a set' could mean different things; not managing the full 5 reps is one thing and it's going to happen once the weight gets heavy: You can reduce the weight for the next session, take a couple of days off and try the same weight again or, if you feel the time is right, start a new cycle.

If you're failing at the first rep, definitely take a couple of days off and reduce the weight a bit before trying that lift again.

I'd definitely recommend getting your hands on a copy of PTTP but I say that to pretty much everyone.

 

[Steve W.]

@guardian7

The ladder is not mentioned in PTTP. However switching to ladders with PTTP is mentioned in Beyond Bodybuilding

Yes, PTTP does not use ladders at all. The ladders program you mention sounds like a variation of the Jason Brice bench press program, which is in Beyond Bodybuildng, and various places around the internet.

The purpose of the daily sets of 5 is to set the weight for the ladders.

The original program was just to add 5lbs a day until the set of 5 feels like a 5RM. Then you use this weight for the ladders, training every other day for two weeks, doing 1-3 ladders until form starts to break down.

After two weeks, you reduce the weight (Jason Brice just backed off 10lbs rather than a percentage) and resume doing daily sets of 5, adding 5lb per day until you have a tough time completing 5 reps. Then take two days off and test your 1RM.

From your post, it sounds like the variation in the manual is to do two or more cycles of sets of 5 before starting the ladders. Do one cycle of 5s until you hit a 5RM. Back off 10-15 percent and ramp up again to a 5RM. As long as your 5RM keeps going up, keep doing more cycles. If your 5RM on the current cycle is the same as your previous cycle, THAT's when you start the ladders.

It's just milking the linear 1x5 cycles until you stop making progress.

when you fail a set

The original program says nothing about failing sets. It mentions "reaching your five rep max" and "when he had a tough time completing his five." For the ladders, it mentions "until his form started to get sloppy." I don't know what the exact words in the manual are, but my inclination would be to stop short of actual failure.

I figure this is a slow and steady wins the race rather than an intense program.

No, this is more of peaking program. If you are familiar with the Dan John terms "Bus Bench" and "Park Bench," this is a Bus Bench program.

HOW TO ADD POUNDS TO YOUR MAX BENCH PRESS
FAST!
by Pavel Tsatsouline (2002)
Try the following program by Jason Brice of Johnson City, Tenn. Jason combined one of the powerlifting cycles from my book Power to the People! with ladders, a technique popular in the Russian military for improving pull-ups.

On June 30, 2001, Brice started out with one set of five reps with 225 lbs, or 67% of his 335-lb max bench (naturally you will have to plug in your own numbers). Jason did only one set of five reps per workout adding 5 lbs each time. What will surprise you is that he benched five days per week, Monday through Friday. The reasoning behind such an unorthodox schedule is outside the scope of this short article, but trust me, it works!

You cannot keep adding 5 lbs per workout forever, even if you started the cycle with a light weight - eventually you will reach your five-rep max. When Jason reached his, he switched from powerlifting style cycling to ladders. A ladder means doing one rep, resting briefly, doing two reps, etc., then starting all over when you cannot top the reps of the previous set. Brice did sets of 1-2-3-1-2 . . . with his five-rep max until his form started to get sloppy. He did this every other day for two weeks.

Then Jason backed off 10 lbs from his five-rep max established two weeks earlier and resumed a linear cycle: one set of five Monday through Friday, adding 5 lbs a day. When he had a tough time completing his five, Jason took two days off and tested his one-rep max, something he did every two months. Here is what he accomplished:

Bench Press, 1 rep max -
June 30th: 335
August 30th: 385
October 31: 420

Bench Press, 5 rep max -
June 30th: 285
August 30th: 325
October 31: 360

After benching he did one-arm snatch pulls with dumbbells and heavy ab work.​

 

[Anna C]

The ladder is not mentioned in PTTP.

Yes, PTTP does not use ladders at all.

There are actually ladder options in the SFL course and SFL cert manuals. It's a little confusing the way it's presented, as to whether it's an add-on option to the PTTP cycle, or a different thing, because it follows the basic PTTP cycle and reads as if "do the PTTP cycle but do these things differently." So I'm not sure if "PTTP Ladders" would be a correct way or incorrect way to refer to it.

 

[guardian7]

There are actually ladder options in the SFL course and SFL cert manuals. It's a little confusing the way it's presented, as to whether it's an add-on option to the PTTP cycle, or a different thing, because it follows the basic PTTP cycle and reads as if "do the PTTP cycle but do these things differently." So I'm not sure if "PTTP Ladders" would be a correct way or incorrect way to refer to it.

Thanks for the replies everyone, but yes I am asking specifically about the Program Design part of the SFL manual under the "Power to the People Plan" program pg. 19 as written in the Barbell SFG course manual. I agree Anna, it needs a new name. The manual directly states: "When you fail to improve in one of the lifts from one cycle to the next (almost always the press), switch to the ladder program listed next for both."

It is 1,2,3 * 3 ladder. Frequency changes to three days from 4-5.

Barbell training is not my focus. I just try to get my deadlift back every winter, so this looks like a perfect program. This year I am adding bench press because I don't usually do it and I have an easy month of work in Feb. I like this program and want to stick to it. I usually do DL singles and my rest periods vary, so the workout takes too long. I also want to experience high frequency with fairly heavy weight as a change up from kettlebells, bodyweight and martial arts.

 

[guardian7]

@guardian7


Yes, PTTP does not use ladders at all. The ladders program you mention sounds like a variation of the Jason Brice bench press program, which is in Beyond Bodybuildng, and various places around the internet.

The purpose of the daily sets of 5 is to set the weight for the ladders.

The original program was just to add 5lbs a day until the set of 5 feels like a 5RM. Then you use this weight for the ladders, training every other day for two weeks, doing 1-3 ladders until form starts to break down.

After two weeks, you reduce the weight (Jason Brice just backed off 10lbs rather than a percentage) and resume doing daily sets of 5, adding 5lb per day until you have a tough time completing 5 reps. Then take two days off and test your 1RM.

From your post, it sounds like the variation in the manual is to do two or more cycles of sets of 5 before starting the ladders. Do one cycle of 5s until you hit a 5RM. Back off 10-15 percent and ramp up again to a 5RM. As long as your 5RM keeps going up, keep doing more cycles. If your 5RM on the current cycle is the same as your previous cycle, THAT's when you start the ladders.

It's just milking the linear 1x5 cycles until you stop making progress.


The original program says nothing about failing sets. It mentions "reaching your five rep max" and "when he had a tough time completing his five." For the ladders, it mentions "until his form started to get sloppy." I don't know what the exact words in the manual are, but my inclination would be to stop short of actual failure.


No, this is more of peaking program. If you are familiar with the Dan John terms "Bus Bench" and "Park Bench," this is a Bus Bench program.

HOW TO ADD POUNDS TO YOUR MAX BENCH PRESS
FAST!
by Pavel Tsatsouline (2002)
Try the following program by Jason Brice of Johnson City, Tenn. Jason combined one of the powerlifting cycles from my book Power to the People! with ladders, a technique popular in the Russian military for improving pull-ups.

On June 30, 2001, Brice started out with one set of five reps with 225 lbs, or 67% of his 335-lb max bench (naturally you will have to plug in your own numbers). Jason did only one set of five reps per workout adding 5 lbs each time. What will surprise you is that he benched five days per week, Monday through Friday. The reasoning behind such an unorthodox schedule is outside the scope of this short article, but trust me, it works!

You cannot keep adding 5 lbs per workout forever, even if you started the cycle with a light weight - eventually you will reach your five-rep max. When Jason reached his, he switched from powerlifting style cycling to ladders. A ladder means doing one rep, resting briefly, doing two reps, etc., then starting all over when you cannot top the reps of the previous set. Brice did sets of 1-2-3-1-2 . . . with his five-rep max until his form started to get sloppy. He did this every other day for two weeks.

Then Jason backed off 10 lbs from his five-rep max established two weeks earlier and resumed a linear cycle: one set of five Monday through Friday, adding 5 lbs a day. When he had a tough time completing his five, Jason took two days off and tested his one-rep max, something he did every two months. Here is what he accomplished:

Bench Press, 1 rep max -
June 30th: 335
August 30th: 385
October 31: 420

Bench Press, 5 rep max -
June 30th: 285
August 30th: 325
October 31: 360

After benching he did one-arm snatch pulls with dumbbells and heavy ab work.​

The version in the SFL manual seems to be an evolution of this approach. It is two sets of five adding five pounds until technical failure and then backing off ten to fifteen percent and starting again.

 

[wespom9]

As I understood the SFL manual, the second cycle failing means that if you got 235 on one cycle then got 235 on the next cycle (no improvement), that's when you switch to ladders. Whatever you refer to it as, it sounds like you have it right @guardian7

 

[guardian7]

As I understood the SFL manual, the second cycle failing means that if you got 235 on one cycle then got 235 on the next cycle (no improvement), that's when you switch to ladders. Whatever you refer to it as, it sounds like you have it right @guardian7

That makes sense. Thanks. Back on track. SF should give the program a new name. It seems to be too easy to confuse it with the original book.

 

[freeflowme]

Thanks for the replies everyone, but yes I am asking specifically about the Program Design part of the SFL manual under the "Power to the People Plan" program pg. 19 as written in the Barbell SFG course manual. I agree Anna, it needs a new name. The manual directly states: "When you fail to improve in one of the lifts from one cycle to the next (almost always the press), switch to the ladder program listed next for both."

It is 1,2,3 * 3 ladder. Frequency changes to three days from 4-5.

So if you're PTTP-ing deadlifts and press, and you've determined that it's time to switch your press to ladders, your weekly program becomes:

Day 1: Deadlift 2x5 (100%, 90%) or 5-3-2; Press 1, 2, 3 *3
Day 2: Deadlift 2x5 (100%, 90%) or 5-3-2
Day 3: Deadlift 2x5 (100%, 90%) or 5-3-2; Press 1, 2, 3 *3
Day 4: Deadlift 2x5 (100%, 90%) or 5-3-2
Day 5: Deadlift 2x5 (100%, 90%) or 5-3-2; Press 1, 2, 3 *3

Is that correct?

 

[JeffC]

I did the 5, 3, 2 ladder for 6 weeks waving the load up to a suitably heavy weight. Only averaging a little over 3 days a week though.

I just dropped back down, to wave back up, using the 3 pyramid of 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1 I have seen somewhere here. The goal is at least 4 days a week.

I am using Push Press and Sumo Deadlift. The lower rep ranges are more suited to developing speed strength and learning a new lift.

So far I like 3 pyramid with 3 minutes rest between sets.

 

[guardian7]

I did the 5, 3, 2 ladder for 6 weeks waving the load up to a suitably heavy weight. Only averaging a little over 3 days a week though.

I just dropped back down, to wave back up, using the 3 pyramid of 3, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1 I have seen somewhere here. The goal is at least 4 days a week.

I am using Push Press and Sumo Deadlift. The lower rep ranges are more suited to developing speed strength and learning a new lift.

So far I like 3 pyramid with 3 minutes rest between sets.

The SF barbell course version I have said that reducing the deadlift frequency when it started to get difficult was the way to go, even down to twice a week when the linear gains stop was OK if I recall.