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Bodyweight Pull Up to Muscle Up Advice

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MissileS

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So I've been making progress with pullups, they've been my main focus because I want to be able to perform strict muscle ups. I can do an explosive pull up, I feel my chest hitting the bar at around the nipple area... but I do feel like I've been stagnating in my weighted pull up progress.. maybe I'm doing everything correct, and just need more time.. but I've noticed getting past the 50 -60 lb weighted pull up is hard for me... I can only do a few reps with those numbers at a time.. I've been GTG a lot, but I was wondering if there is any advice you guys can give to allow me to improve in my weighted pull ups... My chin ups are substantially stronger.. I'm hitting like 70 lb chinups(could possibly do more), but regular grip pull ups continue to remain a challenge for me...

I've also noticed my grip is a limiting factor, so I've been really working on it because I don't feel like I'm "crushing" the bar yet, so I do dead hangs were I emphasize squeezing the living crap out of the bar....

I guess what I'm asking is what kind of exercises would you guys recommend to get my pull ups even stronger, hitting that 100lb weighted pull up is definitely a goal of mine... I understand a lot of it is time, but what can I do to build an iron grip and get those numbers higher? I've been doing pull ups almost 5 days a week for the past year and a half... maybe my body needs more recovery time to increase weight capacity? Thanks guys.
 
Hello,

@MissileS
Is your goal a weighted pull up "per se" or the muscle up ?

Regarding the former, there are plenty of options. Something which works well is the fighter pull up program:
Most of the time, it gets taxing after a while. So doing it on alternate days seems to be a sweet spot between both progression and recovery.

When I was after the OA pull up, I simply used this frame:
It worked very well. You can perform several cycles of it.

As far as the muscle up goes, the "minimal requirement" (according to most sources) is 15 pull ups (strict, chest to the bar). A few dips is obvisous, for more or less the same number.

Nonetheless, the transition phase is crucial here. Do you do it on rings or bar ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Thanks for the in-depth response Pet,

I definitely would love to start incorporating deadlifts in my training regimen, I do them a lot with kettlebells, I definitely want to buy a barbell soon but I have no space in my house right now to have it.. I live with my parents currently and there's just no space.. but did doing the deadlifts help you achieve the one arm pull up? I have very little experience with doing deadlifts, does it have a huge carry over to pull ups and other calisthenics based movements? I also read in the deadlift article by Derek Miller, that plateaus happen as a result of overtraining and not enough recovery, which might be my case lately.. I might have to back off more.

I am more focused on achieving a muscle up, but getting a muscle up and a very heavy weighted pull up are both goals that are on the top of my priority list... I'm doing muscle ups on bars by the way, not rings, although I would like to get into those as well in the future.
 
Hello,

@MissileS
but did doing the deadlifts help you achieve the one arm pull up?
I only used the "frame" of the program, so I used the sets and reps. Nonetheless, the move I performed was weighted pull up. As a goal, we have to consider that 70% of bodyweight added, and done for 4 reps is "enough" raw strength to do a OA pull up. Once you get there, this is just a matter of technique.

have very little experience with doing deadlifts, does it have a huge carry over to pull ups and other calisthenics based movements? I
Deadlift per se, not really. Nevertheless, kettlebell swing sdo. Actually, once you reach "Simple", you get an "acceptable" level regarding the DL (roughly 2x bodyweight), it also helps a lot regarding pull ups. Swings is a move which has a lot of transfer as you can see

I'm doing muscle ups on bars
Grip is something important. Some perfom the bar MU using a regular pull up grip. Some oter use a false grip. I noticed the latter more "wrist friendly".

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
The bar Muscle-up has the added challenge of having to get around the bar (as opposed to one performed on the rings, where one may simply go straight through). This makes the extra-slow reps less smoother, but explosive reps a lot easier. The most common issue I see that many people have with any Muscle-up variation is the transition. It requires shoulder extension mobility and strength in ranges of motion not commonly trained.

From what I've heard so far you could probably work on a few things.
> False Grip Pull-ups and Tennis Ball Pull-ups; these will strengthen your forearm flexion and shorten the distance you need to travel by a few inches
> Sternum Pull-ups; these get you up even higher, allowing you to train that shoulder extension (notice how far back the elbows go)
> Muscle-up Negatives; an active negative (rather than just falling) allows one to learn and work the motor patterns required for the movement with reduced force demands. Pay particular attention to the transition.

Good luck!
 
Pet, did you do the daily dose plan exactly as written for your weighted pull ups? Im stuck at rougly 55-60% added weight for my one rep max (looking to get the 70% * 4 that you mentioned for the OAPU). Volume seems very low to progress the weighted pull ups?
 
If your grip strength on the bar is a limiting factor, consider spending more time hanging from the bar. Work up to a 2-minute hang with just bodyweight, then start adding weight. Remember that grip training is incredibly specific.
Blake Nelson
 
@MissileS
You are really chasing two very different goals with weighted chins and muscle ups. The muscle up is very technique and mobility driven and the weighted chin relies more on strength. You *might* still be able to chase them both if you structure your training well and depending on what you mean by a bar muscle up.

A muscle up can be done using momentum or it can be done slow utilizing strength. It will take a lot longer to learn how to do it slowly.

FWIW I've taught myself to do muscle ups on bars and rings. When I taught myself how to do a muscle up on a bar the most helpful thing I found was using a resistance band for assistance. I would attach it between the bar and under my feet. The reason why this helps is mostly because it naturally pulled me out in front of the pull up bar at the bottom of a pull up which is the easiest way to go around the bar as Machete mentioned. If you use this style of muscle up it is more about explosive power and if you're following a Conjugate style program could be used on your dynamic effort days with weighted chins on your Max Effort days.

If you're hoping to get a legit bar muscle up without momentum you'll have to dedicate a lot of time and effort into training your weaknesses. False grip, mobility, abdominal strength and the transition especially. If you can control the movement like this on a bar, well my friend, you will have done your homework
 
Thank you Griff for the reply and everybody else in this thread...

I have been dedicating one day out of the week to just focus on technique in muscle up.. so I've been doing them negative, and also jumping muscle ups using the floor to help me, since I still lack some strength..

The reason I wish to excel in weighted pull ups is because that will increase pulling strength, which will obviously have tremendous carry over to body weight explosive pull ups, which will help with the muscle ups.

I have just today begun with the russian fighter pull up program. I am starting with a weighted 40 lb kettle bell attached to me via chain belt... 4 rep max, so I am starting with the 4,3,2,1,1 ... and will gradually increase the reps just as the program explains.. I'm not exactly in a rush to get anything, so I don't mind going through a few months of russian fighter to establish high reps with weighted pull ups... my problem was I wasn't following any type of a program, and plateaued really bad... I'm one of those people that has a hard time lowering intensity, and as a result get way to sore.

I'll keep you guys posted, but I'm excited to follow the russian fighter program, and will try and build up some high repetitions with those weighted pull ups...

I'll post up a video at the end of april.
 
I've seen a couple first ever muscle up as WTH effect from achieving Simple.
 
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