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Bodyweight Pull-ups not pulling their weight

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rvaldrich

rvaldrich

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Howdy! So I think I've identified that my back does not seem to respond to high-volume work.
I'm 15 years old for the 25th time, doing S&S + some calisthenics on top of kung fu/MMA. I was inspired by a post which involved what the commenter called 'Easy Strength Lite' (which I cannot find currently). It was basically Easy Strength, but just doing two lifts instead of five.
I've moved my training around a bit and its worked great. Broke through a pleateau...plateau...a stalled progress point on my planche push-up, currently making lightning progress on the glute-hamstring raise. It's working GREAT.
But not for my back.

Ages ago, I tried the Fighter's Pull-up Program and got positively nowhere with it (unless you count elbow pain). Using Easy Strength Lite, both pullup progressions and Row progressions are simply not budging. Not adding reps, not feeling improved sense of ease, nothing.

I can currently do 4-6 tactical pullups (or what I call tactical pullups that would no doubt make @Karensmith roll her eyes and sigh in frustration). I've experimented with some other pull-up types (bodybuilder-style, etc) and there's no performance curve. I go from 'no problem' to 'can't do another rep' in the space of a rep, maybe two.
I can also do assisted 1-arm pull-ups for 2-3 reps, and split lever rows and split front lever pulls for 2-5 reps depending. I also only have about 4-6 floor rows in me.

It seems obvious now that my back needs some serious attention, but I'm not sure how best to tackle this. High-volume work doesn't seem to work for me; do we have any other approaches lying around that I could give a try?
 
I am 6ft, 215ish (though, by golly, I'm getting down to 190 before my birthday, even if I have to chop a leg off).
My goals are pretty unremarkable: I just want to be able to run faster, jump higher, hit harder, move quicker, and perform better than any person ever in the history of forever*.


*Weather permitting, of course.
 
More seriously, I want to reach Sinister, and perform about a dozen bodyweight techniques for reps (planche push-up, side lever pull, etc). This includes a 1-arm pull-up and front lever rows. Both of those moves have been stalled at basically the same progression for the same reps for half a decade or more.
I've backed off, I've doubled-down, and still haven't gotten them to budge.
 
rvaldrich said:
Howdy! So I think I've identified that my back does not seem to respond to high-volume work.
I'm 15 years old for the 25th time, doing S&S + some calisthenics on top of kung fu/MMA. I was inspired by a post which involved what the commenter called 'Easy Strength Lite' (which I cannot find currently). It was basically Easy Strength, but just doing two lifts instead of five.
I've moved my training around a bit and its worked great. Broke through a pleateau...plateau...a stalled progress point on my planche push-up, currently making lightning progress on the glute-hamstring raise. It's working GREAT.
But not for my back.

Ages ago, I tried the Fighter's Pull-up Program and got positively nowhere with it (unless you count elbow pain). Using Easy Strength Lite, both pullup progressions and Row progressions are simply not budging. Not adding reps, not feeling improved sense of ease, nothing.

I can currently do 4-6 tactical pullups (or what I call tactical pullups that would no doubt make @Karensmith roll her eyes and sigh in frustration). I've experimented with some other pull-up types (bodybuilder-style, etc) and there's no performance curve. I go from 'no problem' to 'can't do another rep' in the space of a rep, maybe two.
I can also do assisted 1-arm pull-ups for 2-3 reps, and split lever rows and split front lever pulls for 2-5 reps depending. I also only have about 4-6 floor rows in me.

It seems obvious now that my back needs some serious attention, but I'm not sure how best to tackle this. High-volume work doesn't seem to work for me; do we have any other approaches lying around that I could give a try?
Click to expand...

rv, if you can only do 4 - 6 pullups, then you are working at a very high percentage of your strength on every rep. Almost nobody can do "high volume" with high load percentages, on any lift - it will eventually lead to problems. Also you are not strong enough yet in this area (the back) to be doing any sort of Easy Strength.

If you want to stick to BW stuff, you can try being progressive with inverted rows and hangs for time from the pullup bar. You would probably make faster progress if you had access to something you could use for weighted rows (DB, KB) or a pulldown machine.
 
offwidth said:
Plenty of folks live happy and strong lives without doing pull-ups.

That being said…

I am a fan of weighted low-volume pull-ups.
Click to expand...

I use them at modest volume as a "vertical pull" (lots of debate if that's even a useful construct form a muscles activation POV) to offset all the overhead movements.

3 sets of 3-5, twice a week, after weightlifting .

Every couple of weeks, I'll swap them for inverted rows.


rvaldrich said:
I am 6ft, 215ish (though, by golly, I'm getting down to 190 before my birthday, even if I have to chop a leg off).
My goals are pretty unremarkable: I just want to be able to run faster, jump higher, hit harder, move quicker, and perform better than any person ever in the history of forever*.
Click to expand...

FWIW, I'm 5'11", 225ish, age 51, and do modest amounts of pull ups.

If an old ^*#% like me can do it at a heavier weight, I think you can get there.
 
rvaldrich said:
Ages ago, I tried the Fighter's Pull-up Program and got positively nowhere with it (unless you count elbow pain). Using Easy Strength Lite, both pullup progressions and Row progressions are simply not budging. Not adding reps, not feeling improved sense of ease, nothing.

I can currently do 4-6 tactical pullups (or what I call tactical pullups that would no doubt make @Karensmith roll her eyes and sigh in frustration). I've experimented with some other pull-up types (bodybuilder-style, etc) and there's no performance curve. I go from 'no problem' to 'can't do another rep' in the space of a rep, maybe two.
I can also do assisted 1-arm pull-ups for 2-3 reps, and split lever rows and split front lever pulls for 2-5 reps depending. I also only have about 4-6 floor rows in me.

It seems obvious now that my back needs some serious attention, but I'm not sure how best to tackle this. High-volume work doesn't seem to work for me; do we have any other approaches lying around that I could give a try?
Click to expand...

Ok, one question first - what about volume? Like how many sets do you usually do, and how much does your performance decrease from set to set? Also, what rowing progressions are you using?
That being said, if your max is 4-6 regular pull-ups, I would leave one armed progressions be for now and focus on pull-ups and rows first. Depending on whether or not you have currently elbow issues, it might even be smarter to focus on rows first. While an online diagnosis is always tricky, if I had to guess I'd say your upper back and biceps are probably stronger than your middle back based on your numbers. Rows should address that. I think using some kind of slingtrainer (lots of DIY tutorials around if you don't want to invest in one) or a doorway pull-up bar that is adjustable in height would work best, the reason being that this way you can seamlessly adjust the inclination and therefore the intensity to the desired level. I would aim to get the bodyweight row up to at least 10 reps at the lowest regular setting (legs straight, back almost touching the floor), which should already give you some carry-over to pull-ups, which I'd re-introduce at this point latest. From there, you can work on elevating the legs in the rows, cranking up the reps and potentially elevating the legs. I personally have come to the conclusion that it's wise to also train rows to balance out pull-ups, though your mileage may vary.
Now, for pull-ups, there are a number of options, if you can do them without pain. I have played with very slow and controlled pull-ups (try shooting for 30 seconds up and 30 seconds down first, then gradually increase to 1 minute up, one minute down), isometric holds at 90° for time, partials (from 90° up, hang to 90°, or mid range; I usually focus on the sticking point and work that for 4-8 weeks, usually without doing full reps in this timeframe), multiple submaximal sets (GTG throughout the day or up to 40 sets in one workout), close to maximum sets twice per workout (one first thing after warming up, one as a finisher), and everything in between. I recommend all of them, though definitely not all at the same time :D
As for programming, you could try a variety of things depending on what suits you. It could be GTG - doing a submaximal set every time you pass your pull-up bar -, it could be one set in the morning and one one set in the evening, 3-5 sets per workout 2-3 times per week etc. Generally, I have found that at least for me, I need a good amount of volume for the back to respond. It may therefore be helpful in your case to at least try a program with slightly higher reps at an easier progression which allows you to do at least 30 reps total per session without too much fatigue. At least with rows, this shouldn't be a problem.

Cheers
Period.
 
rvaldrich said:
I am 6ft, 215ish (though, by golly, I'm getting down to 190 before my birthday, even if I have to chop a leg off).
My goals are pretty unremarkable: I just want to be able to run faster, jump higher, hit harder, move quicker, and perform better than any person ever in the history of forever*.


*Weather permitting, of course.
Click to expand...
To state the obvious; getting down to 190 will certainly help. That’s a 25 pound “unweighted” pull up. Your back may even look both fuller and wider.
 
rvaldrich said:
More seriously, I want to reach Sinister, and perform about a dozen bodyweight techniques for reps (planche push-up, side lever pull, etc). This includes a 1-arm pull-up and front lever rows. Both of those moves have been stalled at basically the same progression for the same reps for half a decade or more.
I've backed off, I've doubled-down, and still haven't gotten them to budge.
Click to expand...
rv, since you have KBs, you can do rows. Keep your back flat, put your left forearm on or just above your knee, and row with your right. Do not rotate your back - keep the chest facing down. Switch sides. Be progressive with these rows, do some hangs for time, and in a few months you should be able to do a decent set of pullups. It's be even easier when you get down to 190. In the meantime I'd really limit trying all those other bodyweight movements - they'll be a lot easier and safer* to learn when you are stronger and lighter. *they aren't dangerous, you'll just get less little dings and irritations when lighter and stronger.
 
My general advice to people who can get less than 10 pull-ups and want to do more is, more or less the same as the general prescription to get stronger - do more sub-maximal effort sets, gradually adding sets and reps, and once in a great while having an unpsyched up go to failure.
If you can do 5 pull-ups, awesome. Do sets of 2 or 3. Build up volume until those become no problem. Then, do sets of 3 or 4. When repeats of that are easy, you should be able to get 6 or 7 reps. Then, it's on to sets of 3, 4, or 5. Rinse and repeat.
 
rvaldrich said:
and perform about a dozen bodyweight techniques for reps (planche push-up, side lever pull, etc). This includes a 1-arm pull-up and front lever rows. Both of those moves have been stalled at basically the same progression for the same reps for half a decade or more.
Click to expand...

Steve A said:
rv, if you can only do 4 - 6 pullups, then you are working at a very high percentage of your strength on every rep
Click to expand...
As @Steve A remarked, this is likely why you are not seeing progress, especially with calisthenics skills. I have worked in a calisthenics gym, and without a doubt, the numer 1 thing I see people doing that holds them back is this. Another way to put it is, "are you testing your strength, or are you training to get stronger?" I would find ways to train at more submaximal levels (bands, easier leverages, etc.)

Coming off of shoulder surgery a few years back, I used rows for quite sometime. I built to sets of 8-10, and, like @Period said, it worked. When I tried pullups/chins fornthe first time in a year or so, after surgery and rehab, they went up no problem.
 
@rvaldrich, I've posted an approach to pull-ups several times on the forum (perhaps someone can find a link) that worked well for me and with lower volume. Basically, two days a week of weighted work that keeps your rep range on the low side, and once a week, a near-max effort as: warmup, do a near-max set of pull-ups, do a back-off near-max set of chin-ups, and you're done on your near-max day. Using this approach, and kettlebells in the 12-24 kg range, I was able to work up to 19 reps while holding a 20 lb. dumbbell between my feet. The near-max weekly effort was simple - for 3 weeks, try to add one rep, and for the 4th week, take it easy. Using this approach I went up basically 1 or 2 reps per month on near-max day (which was with the dumbbell between my feet). Finally, when I felt the cycle had run its course, I went for an all-out max day and got 2 more reps than the most recent near-max.

-S-
 
All of y'all are awesome. Thank you so, so much for the insights. I'm going to try the rows (those single-leg KB rows from the ETK bonus B looks perfect) and some hanging scapular shrugs and see what happens. Wish me luck!
 
So I did rows and hanging shrugs this morning. 2 sets of each. Rows, I did single-leg, single-bell style, with a 10lb bell and then a 15lb bell. Hanging shrugs, I did one five-sec hold, and then two five-second holds.

And what the f**k have y'all done to me?!?! I've got a gazillion aches all over my back and arms. I've got soreness in places I didn't know I had places.
I don't know if this is 'working', but it damn-sure is doing something. I'll keep you posted because if this does work, I feel like we need to make note of it.
 
Scap pull-ups (aka hanging shrugs) are a great drill. So are flexed arm hangs (aka isometrics). Probably even hanging leg raises will do some good. None of them will likely be THE answer, but they all could be some use to you.
 
Inverted rows were mentioned, AKA ‘Aussie Pull-ups’. Though not exactly working stuff like a true pull-up, I think they have merit as a progression and/or a good exercise in their own right. It’s usually pretty easy to work progressions if you have access to a rack and bar.
Additionally these can be done weighted and with one arm versions.
 
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