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Bodyweight Pullup biomechanics (grip question)

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John Kowalski

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I just read an interview with Dr William Wong, I'd like to know your opinion about his statement on correct pull up grip: "Wide grip pull downs or any pulldown with a pronated (palms away from you) grip. These movements are not only bio mechanically inefficient they murder the rotator cuff killing mostly the supraspinatus and terres muscles. Most folks quit the iron game when their shoulders get trashed out somewhere after 35. On the improper biomechanics: The lats have 160 degrees of range of motion when worked in the sagittal (front to back plane), to do that your palms need to be facing you to properly position your elbows. Turn your palms away from you and all of a sudden you are working on the transverse plane where the lats have only 60 to 80 degrees of ROM. Not only that but with out the bicep in the action your weak little elbow flexors will give out before the lats are saturated with exercise so the loss is doubled. The old wives tale of the lats having to work harder to make up for the biceps not being in the work would be true if the lats were connected to the elbow but they are not, they attach at the shoulder so that often told exercise pointer is absolute biomechanical hogwash!" full article can be found here: Conversation with Dr. William Wong - Mahler's Aggressive Strength
 
@John Kowalski I have personally never had any rotator cuff issues when performing hardstyle tactical pull-ups in a grease the groove fashion. I believe that the real issue here is that for many trainees they are simply not strong enough to perform them correctly thus use poor form (kipping) resulting in overuse injuries.

Another point that this article does not address is that kettlebell grinds and quick lifts have a mysterious way of complimenting each other all the time. They also tie in very nicely with the skills instructed at SFL and SFB. This is often the reason that trainees who follow the StrongFirst principles excel at movements like tactical pull-ups because they are simply better prepared with a greater understanding of the movement, their skill level and the programming that supports it.
 
John Kowalski said:
I just read an interview with Dr William Wong, I'd like to know your opinion about his statement on correct pull up grip: "Wide grip pull downs or any pulldown with a pronated (palms away from you) grip. These movements are not only bio mechanically inefficient they murder the rotator cuff killing mostly the supraspinatus and terres muscles. Most folks quit the iron game when their shoulders get trashed out somewhere after 35. On the improper biomechanics: The lats have 160 degrees of range of motion when worked in the sagittal (front to back plane), to do that your palms need to be facing you to properly position your elbows. Turn your palms away from you and all of a sudden you are working on the transverse plane where the lats have only 60 to 80 degrees of ROM. Not only that but with out the bicep in the action your weak little elbow flexors will give out before the lats are saturated with exercise so the loss is doubled. The old wives tale of the lats having to work harder to make up for the biceps not being in the work would be true if the lats were connected to the elbow but they are not, they attach at the shoulder so that often told exercise pointer is absolute biomechanical hogwash!" full article can be found here: Conversation with Dr. William Wong - Mahler's Aggressive Strength
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Let me see if I get this right.
Yeah the lats have roughly 180 degrees of ROM in the sagittal plane. That means, moving your hands from overhead to down by your sides, all in front of your body.
And yeah, they have about 75 degrees of ROM in the transverse plane. That means pulling your hands from straight out in front of you, to retracted with elbows behind you (like the top of a row).

What makes absolutely no sense in my mind is how hand changes that whatsoever. I can get similar ROM in those two movements, regardless of where my palms are facing.

I guess his point is that if you did a pull-up with overgrip, then it'll be more like a row (you'll arch and it'll work the transverse plane), and that if you switch to neutral grip, then suddenly you'll be able to stay upright, and work in the sagittal plane. Did I get this right?

To which I say:
A) I can get whatever form I want, regardless of grip. I can arch a lot, do a BB-like Pull-up, and resemble a row... regardless of grip. Ditto for the tactical pull-up. I can stay upright just fine with an underhand grip.
B) Even if somehow grip dictated how much you end up angling the ground... how is that a good argument that one causes injury? The ROM is limited if you arch back yeah (which is why you can only do a Muscle-up while upright), but that doesn't mean it'll cause injury.

Bodybuilder-like Pull-ups get a bad rap. I don't know why. I think it can have its place in training. The Pull-up trains vertical while the Row trains horizontal pulling. The BB Pull-up trains the in-between. I think of it as the Incline Bench Press. Yeah, it shouldn't be the bulk of your training, but it certainly has value in my eyes.

Meh, just my 2 cents. Maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying.
 
I've had a supraspinatus tear and repair job & wide grip pullups just aren't possible for me. It feels like it's going to rip my arm out of its socket and hurts quite a bit. A wide grip chinlup (as wide as those pullup bars in many gyms with the ends bent down to about 20 deg) would probably dislocate my shoulder just getting into position.

As for the grip, at or around shoulder width it doesn't make much difference to me except I'm a bit stronger with a chinup grip.
 
305pelusa said:
Bodybuilder-like Pull-ups get a bad rap. I don't know why. I think it can have its place in training. The Pull-up trains vertical while the Row trains horizontal pulling. The BB Pull-up trains the in-between. I think of it as the Incline Bench Press. Yeah, it shouldn't be the bulk of your training, but it certainly has value in my eyes.
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I agree with this completely. I have difficulty with the BB style of pullup and wish I was better at them.

-S-
 
This is probably because english is foreign language for me, but the wording of Dr Wong puzzles me. Is it really possible to measure the ROM of a muscle? In degrees? Joint, yes, but muscle? Now, OK, pronation/supination modify the distance between the elbow flexors' insertion points and their engagement/efficiency in the flexion. But beyond all those consideration, Dr Wong's opinion pertains to BB world, which we are not really part of.

Why is our pull-up 'Tactical"? Because it mimicks the action we might encounter in everyday life, climbing over a wall, for example. Consider this: our anatomy and biomechanics are the product of the million-year long evolution. I hardly see our ancestors climbing up trees and cliffs with the chin-up grip. Our body was sculpted (at least, in part) by the use we made of it. So, IMHO, if our forearm bones "cross" each other in pronation and limit somewhat the elbow flexion, there's certainly an evolutional reason to it. And if our species is still here, after all those million years, it means our anatomy/biomechanics were efficient enough to see us through safely.

I believe most of the joint problems common to lifters whether they are BB, PL, WL, CF, and so on, come from the lack of balance in strength and tonus in muscles surrounding each particular joint (flexors vs extensors, internal vs external rotators etc). Proper technique, competent coaching (including wise choice of exercices), and mobility work should prevent most of those problems or solve them (unless, they're advanced to a pathlogical level, in which case one should seek help from a medical profesional).

To sum up: yes to pull-ups (pronated grip) at the condition of proper technique (especially, lats' and abs' engagement), mobility work, and additional work to strengthen the "opposite" movement patterns (vertical pressing, external shoulder rotation...) As usual, I express my opinion only and remain open to discussion.
 
Hello,

John Kowalski said:
Wide grip pull downs or any pulldown with a pronated (palms away from you) grip. These movements are not only bio mechanically inefficient they murder the rotator cuff killing mostly the supraspinatus and terres muscles
Click to expand...
I guess it depends on people, and also if they stretch or not. I did for very long time pronated PU using a wide grip. I never had problem doing them. A good control of the move (no kipping), a smooth transition when you are at the bottom and you are about to go up are safe IMO. I believe the main problem is trying to do a PU in full ROM when you lack of strength.

Assuming a pronated grip, width grip barely influence the use of biceps / traps / big dorsal (electromagnetic studies of muscle use proved it)

Below, @Karen Smith 's video about pull up:


Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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John Kowalski said:
I just read an interview with Dr William Wong, I'd like to know your opinion about his statement on correct pull up grip: "Wide grip pull downs or any pulldown with a pronated (palms away from you) grip. These movements are not only bio mechanically inefficient they murder the rotator cuff killing mostly the supraspinatus and terres muscles. Most folks quit the iron game when their shoulders get trashed out somewhere after 35. On the improper biomechanics: The lats have 160 degrees of range of motion when worked in the sagittal (front to back plane), to do that your palms need to be facing you to properly position your elbows. Turn your palms away from you and all of a sudden you are working on the transverse plane where the lats have only 60 to 80 degrees of ROM. Not only that but with out the bicep in the action your weak little elbow flexors will give out before the lats are saturated with exercise so the loss is doubled. The old wives tale of the lats having to work harder to make up for the biceps not being in the work would be true if the lats were connected to the elbow but they are not, they attach at the shoulder so that often told exercise pointer is absolute biomechanical hogwash!" full article can be found here: Conversation with Dr. William Wong - Mahler's Aggressive Strength
Click to expand...
I just happened to be reading about wide-grip pullups in Steven Low's new Overcoming Gravity when I found this post and thought a quote from the book might be helpful:

"Wide grip pullups and archer pull-ups may bother your shoulders and cause discomfort or pain as your rotator cuff muscles fatigue. Do not place this progression near the end of your routine when you will be most fatigued. It may also be a good idea to perform supplemental rotator cuff muscle work....". He goes on to say, "Generally speaking, be careful with wide grip pull-ups when you are fatigued, as your shoulder will be vulnerable while in a fully external rotated state with a distraction force like pull-ups. You should avoid this movement if you have shoulder subluxation or shoulder dislocation issues."

@Tarzan's painful personal experience with wide grip pull-ups would seem to validate the above. Personally, I only stick with conventional shoulder-width pullups, mixing back and forth with pronated and supinated grips, and the only issues I've ever had are golfer's elbow tendonitis. The few wide grip pullups I've done don't feel great, so I pretty much avoid them. I have somewhat lax joints so I try to be careful with certain exercises.

I agree with @Alexey. I climbed a lot of trees as a kid (and adult) and I've never done that with an underhand grip. I've never seen videos or pictures of rock climbers using an underhand grip either. Dr. Wong's comment doesn't make sense to me.
 
I had to look up what a bodybuilder type push up was. Now I know.
It is what I have to run with. As it is the only way I can do them with my equipment.
 
The comparison of the dynamics of human vs primate mechanics is a grey area for me.

When I see my brothers and sisters swinging in the trees (sorry I couldn't resist that) I notice a lot of their climbing is done with a neutral grip on the trunk of a tree. They do tend to hold horizontal branches with a pronated grip for brachiation and to swing up to a higher branch etc but it's rare for them mimic a human style pullup and pull their chin up over a branch without using their legs.

When I've observed different species of primates in brachiation, there's normally a dynamic pre-loading phase with a pronated grip and then they tend use that loading to swing in an arc and throw their body sideways as they move upwards or traverse etc. They don't tend to perform many dead hang movements that just move in one fixed plane like we do with pullups.

A lot of the time a primate will never bend at the elbow anywhere near as much as we do when we do a chest to the bar pullup or a chinup. Maybe if chimps had to do 10 full pullups or chinups chest to the bar to get a banana they'd prefer a supinated grip.
 
@Alexey : You bring up an interesting question. Why is it that SF teaches the pull up with the overhand, thumbless grip almost exclusively?

I can't imagine it's because most pulling we do in real life is that way. In reality, whenever we do any overhead pulling, it's to get over objects (fence,ledge,obstacle) so the Muscle up just makes more sense as an actual strength exercise with a very good functional carry-overr. Yet I don't see much, if any Muscle up work in SF, except for those invested in calisthenics like Tarzan and myself. It's just mostly weighted, tactical pull ups from what I can tell.

If the purpose of the Pull-up is just a more general strength builder that builds the grip, strong lats, and a much-needed offset from all vertical press work inherent in KBs (which I always assumed was the reason for having the Pullup) then why is the underhand grip rarely used?

Just some questions that popped up from reading your comment. Really good thread so far!
 
@305pelusa, we teach the overhand grip first but not only. I always encourage students to use every grip variation they can.

In my own training, if I'm doing a high volume of pull-ups, I usually do close to half of them with a chin-up grip.

-S-
 
Tarzan said:
The comparison of the dynamics of human vs primate mechanics is a grey area for me.

When I see my brothers and sisters swinging in the trees (sorry I couldn't resist that) I notice a lot of their climbing is done with a neutral grip on the trunk of a tree. They do tend to hold horizontal branches with a pronated grip for brachiation and to swing up to a higher branch etc but it's rare for them mimic a human style pullup and pull their chin up over a branch without using their legs.

When I've observed different species of primates in brachiation, there's normally a dynamic pre-loading phase with a pronated grip and then they tend use that loading to swing in an arc and throw their body sideways as they move upwards or traverse etc. They don't tend to perform many dead hang movements that just move in one fixed plane like we do with pullups.

A lot of the time a primate will never bend at the elbow anywhere near as much as we do when we do a chest to the bar pullup or a chinup. Maybe if chimps had to do 10 full pullups or chinups chest to the bar to get a banana they'd prefer a supinated grip.
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You beat me to it @Tarzan, I was going to go to my local zoo soon to observe some of our simian cousins. Though I doubt I would have picked up on as much as you did. In fact, you gave me a forehead slapping moment. Of course, they use their legs as much for climbing as their arms. It should have dawned on me when I commented on the rock climbers. About a year ago I went with my then 11 year old daughter to a big indoor rock climbing place by my house. First time for me, whereas she was much more experienced. She outmonkeyed me that day (I still haven't heard the end of it from her) and I learned a valuable lesson about technique. No matter how many pullups you can do, I can probably do 10-12 max, there's no substitute for getting your legs involved. I figured I would outpull her but after about 90 minutes my grip was gone and never came back, so I was done. The next day my lats were screaming.

So based on how the pros (monkeys, apes) do it, maybe our upper body pulling system isn't really designed for full bodyweight pulls after all, but that doesn't mean we can't build it up if we do so slowly and carefully. Just have to go easy on the rotator cuffs and elbow tendons and other vulnerable points.
 
Steve Freides said:
@305pelusa, we teach the overhand grip first but not only. I always encourage students to use every grip variation they can.

In my own training, if I'm doing a high volume of pull-ups, I usually do close to half of them with a chin-up grip.

-S-
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Gotcha. Yeah that makes sense. I always heard about varying the grip :)
 
I like mixed grip because you add an anti-rotation element. I cannot do one pull-up, but I can do 5-8 of other variations. Why?

Neutral grip is one of my favorites, and neutral grip bent arm hangs are a great antagonist to the Kettlebell front rack. I have 48mm pipe threaded on one end I use for leveraging, and vertical bar lifts. I hang the pipes or a 2" rope from my pull-up bar for vertical grip chins and hangs. Rolling thunder handles are another brutal variation especially for a 250lb fat guy.

I do full kneeling cable pull down variations for my pronated grip, usually after I bench.
 
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offwidth said:
Usually rockclimbers do not use an underhand grip. But some times we do when using a feature or type of hold known as an 'undercling'. Not that common but it does exist.
Like @Steve Freides said... it's important to train grip variations
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Thanks Offwidth, I see what you mean. Doesn't look like you'd be doing a pullup (chinup) per se using that grip in that situation, but I see now how rock climbers can run into the occasional need for an underhand grip, if only to brace oneself, as it appears you are doing in that picture. When I went to the indoor rock climbing facility with my daughter, they had numerous features that looked exactly like what you are doing. Not sure what you call it but you're essentially hanging back on a greater than 90 degree angle wall. I didn't go near any routes that looked like that, lol.
 
Hello,

I think dynamics of the move is also a element worth considering.

That way, a standard SF pull up starts from a dead hang position to emphasize strength work. However, using a swing move (kipping) and a good coordination can help you to get a higher point (grab a branch or a climbing grip). This requires some spinal flexibility (coronal plane).

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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