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Bodyweight Pullup question...getting stronger finishing top of the pull...

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crazycanuck

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I have been working on pullups for what feels like...almost forever. BTW in saying that I am not expecting this journey to be quick, and have some questions I would love to bring over here.

Video below is from last couple of days. This is a max attempt for me, cannot do multiple reps at this point yet other than get back up on second attempt to elbows at 90 degrees.



Have previously worked on hollow position and to a 1 min dead hang, have used various things such as gtg negatives slowly lowering to the floor, or lowering and stopping for a 3 count at various points eg: at elbows 90 degrees. Recently started doing assistance work with standing on a chair, for the bottom part of the pull, like described in this thread How I got my first pull-up and more

With that chair work noticed a big improvement in that it helps me sense using my lats better, and also previously would have to stand on tippy toes when holding bar, putting shoulders in an engaged position and giving a huge assist that way in that it eliminates some of my weight, in video am trying not to prop up my weight just before pulling, and pulling overall from the bottom feeling easier and easier.

Vid looks as if I am chest to bar from this filming angle, but am not. If I recall correctly clavicles and chest are about 2 inches from bar, and tip of my nose touches bottom of door frame. This is where I have trouble, at this point feel like shoulders start to shrug up and lose engagement of the lats (am trying to think of pulling bar down to me, and elbows back/tuck shoulder blades "into the pockets"). Most days I attempt, I do not get this high, usually just bridge of nose to the bar.

Also I realize my bar is pretty high up and get this same "traps taking over feeling" when doing a negative (until about halfway before my arms get to a 90 degree angle). To do a negative I pull out a drawer, use that to get over right up onto bathroom counter, and guide my legs central and start the negative, I think if bar is lower that may solve that problem. I am preferring if possible to not put it so low as to do work for the top of the bar portion on a chair, bar would be almost my eye level here. I do have a free standing basement bar in a high ceiling joist that gets rarely used now, as this setup is much more conducive for things like GTG methods upstairs in my main living areas.

I know everyone here is so helpful and would love some more suggestions.....rings?Kettlebell rows (have no dumbbells) Continue negatives from the top with a lower bar, etc?

Exercise wise, other work I am doing is after a hiatus doing other things, a repeat run-through of reaching Simple (just first and last sets left to change in swings yet, getups been at 16kg for a long while), but really no other training or heavy physical activity, work shiftwork job which tires me/affects sleep at times, but other than these things no factors that affect my training. I have briefly tried some 3 days a week sort of pullup programs, but overall find GTG methods less taxing physically.

Thanks to everyone who has read this long tale, looking forward to all your wonderful advice!
 
I have been working on pullups for what feels like...almost forever. BTW in saying that I am not expecting this journey to be quick, and have some questions I would love to bring over here.

Video below is from last couple of days. This is a max attempt for me, cannot do multiple reps at this point yet other than get back up on second attempt to elbows at 90 degrees.



Have previously worked on hollow position and to a 1 min dead hang, have used various things such as gtg negatives slowly lowering to the floor, or lowering and stopping for a 3 count at various points eg: at elbows 90 degrees. Recently started doing assistance work with standing on a chair, for the bottom part of the pull, like described in this thread How I got my first pull-up and more

With that chair work noticed a big improvement in that it helps me sense using my lats better, and also previously would have to stand on tippy toes when holding bar, putting shoulders in an engaged position and giving a huge assist that way in that it eliminates some of my weight, in video am trying not to prop up my weight just before pulling, and pulling overall from the bottom feeling easier and easier.

Vid looks as if I am chest to bar from this filming angle, but am not. If I recall correctly clavicles and chest are about 2 inches from bar, and tip of my nose touches bottom of door frame. This is where I have trouble, at this point feel like shoulders start to shrug up and lose engagement of the lats (am trying to think of pulling bar down to me, and elbows back/tuck shoulder blades "into the pockets"). Most days I attempt, I do not get this high, usually just bridge of nose to the bar.

Also I realize my bar is pretty high up and get this same "traps taking over feeling" when doing a negative (until about halfway before my arms get to a 90 degree angle). To do a negative I pull out a drawer, use that to get over right up onto bathroom counter, and guide my legs central and start the negative, I think if bar is lower that may solve that problem. I am preferring if possible to not put it so low as to do work for the top of the bar portion on a chair, bar would be almost my eye level here. I do have a free standing basement bar in a high ceiling joist that gets rarely used now, as this setup is much more conducive for things like GTG methods upstairs in my main living areas.

I know everyone here is so helpful and would love some more suggestions.....rings?Kettlebell rows (have no dumbbells) Continue negatives from the top with a lower bar, etc?

Exercise wise, other work I am doing is after a hiatus doing other things, a repeat run-through of reaching Simple (just first and last sets left to change in swings yet, getups been at 16kg for a long while), but really no other training or heavy physical activity, work shiftwork job which tires me/affects sleep at times, but other than these things no factors that affect my training. I have briefly tried some 3 days a week sort of pullup programs, but overall find GTG methods less taxing physically.

Thanks to everyone who has read this long tale, looking forward to all your wonderful advice!


Have you tried band assisted pull ups yet?

I found them immensely helpful when working towards my first ones, and still use them if trying to put in lots of reps.
 
Hello,

@crazycanuck
First of all, congrats for this nice pull up.

Depending on how it fits your schedule, GTG is a good way to go.

Otherwise, resistance bands (assistance in this case) are helpful. If you have several of them, you can use a "thin one" for 2 or 3 sets of 2 or 3 reps. Then, you use a thicker one (to get more assistance) and you do 2 or 3 sets of 2 or 3 reps. This progressive assistance will permit you to build volume.

The same logic can be used with a pulley and counterweight. To a certain extent, this is even better because you can clearly measure the assistance to track the progress.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
That's an awesome pull-up, @crazycanuck !

My 3 suggestions:
  1. Initiate with the lats, not the biceps. Senior SFG Betsy Collie does a great job of explaining that in this video.
  2. Drive the elbows back at the top
  3. Get on a pull-up program! You might just need more volume for improvements. And to get that volume, find regressions. Bands are OK but they help more at the bottom than the top. I haven't ever found the perfect solution myself but I'm sure you'll get some more good ideas here.
Also, have you ever tried chin-ups? As @Karen Smith says, pull-ups thrive on specialized variety.
 
A few thoughts for you, @crazycanuck, from my own experience with pullups.

I went from 2 pullups to 12 with no pullups training when my training consisted of barbell deadlifts and kettlebell military presses with an active negative.

My understanding of why this worked is that my abs, my lats, and my grip all got stronger.

-S-
 
A few thoughts for you, @crazycanuck, from my own experience with pullups.

I went from 2 pullups to 12 with no pullups training when my training consisted of barbell deadlifts and kettlebell military presses with an active negative.

My understanding of why this worked is that my abs, my lats, and my grip all got stronger.

-S-
That's really really cool WTH benefits. Given that I can feel the triceps and pecs assisting in pulling the arms down in the pull up I would speculate the any exercise that strengthens those muscles (KB MP) would contribute that way at some level to the increase in pull ups as well. Especially with your active MP negatives.

Yes, I'm starting to catch up with why the KB MP and pull ups are so popular around here.
 
Hello,

I globally agree with the above. These kind of exercises may help to a certain extent. Nonetheless according to the SAID principle, you get really good at what you actually practice.

Maybe there are 'thresholds':
- From 1-2 to 10-12, snatches, DL, swings may help
- From 10-12 to more, specific training. Otherwise, you fall into maintenance

Big pulls with ballistic (so no DL for example) may maintain number of reps, at least for a while. To see a real increase in pull ups, without actually working on them, huge volume are necessary, such as ROP.

Here, @Eric Frohardt states an increase in weighted pull ups. However the endurance component remained inchanged

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
That's an awesome pull-up, @crazycanuck !

My 3 suggestions:
  1. Initiate with the lats, not the biceps. Senior SFG Betsy Collie does a great job of explaining that in this video.
  2. Drive the elbows back at the top
  3. Get on a pull-up program! You might just need more volume for improvements. And to get that volume, find regressions. Bands are OK but they help more at the bottom than the top. I haven't ever found the perfect solution myself but I'm sure you'll get some more good ideas here.
Also, have you ever tried chin-ups? As @Karen Smith says, pull-ups thrive on specialized variety.
I've been using the cues from the Betsy Collie vid, very helpful. Much appreciated.
 
Have you tried doing 1/2 pullups starting from top to 90* elbow bend?Also consider isometric holds at 90*(these are harder than holds at the top).
 
Initiate with the lats, not the biceps. Senior SFG Betsy Collie does a great job of explaining that in this video.
I second this. Often I have seen pull ups taught by first having people simply do hanging shrugs to depress the shoulders. No movement in the arms themselves, just pulling your shoulders down away from your ears. I would add trying to twist the points of your elbows forward as you do this. This can be done for reps or as a hold, making it an active hang.

Have previously worked on hollow position and to a 1 min dead hang
To get that initial lat engagement, maybe try working in some active hangs, as I have described.
 
Have you tried asking Mr Canuck to help you with assistance like they teach in the SFB workshop? It'll work somewhat like the feet assisted ones with a chair or other. Couldn't find a video by an SFG but it's somewhat like this video but with both hands on the upper back. If you can get enough assistance to get good volume in like 3x3 to 5x5 you will certainly make good progress. I really think you need volume.

 
How are the pull-ups going, @crazycanuck? Any of this helpful?

Sorry everyone, I have not forgotten about this thread but have not been able to get back to it in a timely fashion, but I appreciate everyone taking time to reply.

I agree with everyone, more volume is what I need. I have seen some pullup programs (and breifly tried one for a week or so last winter) of all sorts of sets of accessory exercises/3x a week sort of setup, which I found tiring acutally doing 30-40 min of concentrated accessory work in addition to S&S almost everyday, compared to GTG.

In reflecting on what I feel during a pullup, it's mainly that just as I get past 90 degrees (like maybe bridge of nose level to the bar), I feel like my lats disengage, and the upper traps start to shrug, moreso with the actual pullup attempt, vs doing a negative pullup. Initiating the pullup feels stronger than in the past though. I think if I lost some weight as well life would be easier too.


My setup is a bit faulty, my bathroom bar is pretty high, and it is difficult even using the bathroom counter to get myself up high enough over it that my lats are engaged first athough I try to ensure that before I lower myself. I am thinking lowering the bar is a better idea (have taken it out but need to get a stripped screw out). Right now the last few days have been using a bar in the basement, and a ladder to get up to it...for sure not as convenient for doing GTG. I will try to get a video today or tomorrow into this thread of a pullup attempt on this, feels different with not as much impediment of where my head ends up going and the setup/start at the top feels better (not shrugging shoulders),

Mainly have been doing a mix of all sorts of things like negatives, starting at the top and stopping for 5 sec or so at 90 degrees, etc, and a pullup every few days. I think I need to find one or two sorts of boosts/accessory movements, and stick to it for a while perhaps then reevaluate.

One thing I have toyed with, is a set of rings (I know grip/stability is different) and something simular to this, not sure if this would be worth it just for this sticking point at the top (although I know rings would be useful in the future for other stuff) Thoughts??.


 
I think rings would definitely allow you to do assisted pulls with feet on the floor like I did with my low bar set-up, but I found pulls on rings hard due to the instability.

From my personal experience assisted pull-ups has been THE regression that got me from being able to sometimes do 1 full good pull-up to being able to train them fully.

I did do all the other things before like you did, flex hangs with slow negatives, lots of active hangs, tons of ring rows or rows on a bar. What I think makes the difference is staying in your confort zone, meaning your brain not going into panic mode because of being so close to a 1RM when training. Negatives in my opinion are usually close to a 1RM and should be used sparingly. Ring/bar rows were not close enough to the vertical pulling movement to offer enough carryover (without being useless obviously). When having the feet on the floor it takes away maybe 50%+ of the weight you have to lift but you can maintain almost the same trajectory that you do in a real pull-up. That way you can do good volume without that much fatigue. I'd aim for last rep of last set to be harder but made all the other ones kind of easy, aiming for a 50% of max reps when doing sets of 5, meaning I could of done 4-5 more reps in the set when I stopped.

Like I said before if Mr Canuck can help with both hands on your shoulder blades adding enough help so you can do a solid 3-5 reps while having a few reps left after the set you could start with 3x3 or 3x5 and slowly add reps and sets focusing on the assisted pulls for 3-4 weeks with maybe just some active hangs you could really get to see if they help more than other methods.

Sorry if I keep rambling about this method. This should be the last time I insist on it.

Have a great evening.

EDIT: My wife agreed to shoot a video of a partner assisted pull-up so you can see how it works properly. Usually she can do 1 chin-up and no pull-ups so this should be interesting. I'll upload it after supper.
 
Last edited:
Sorry everyone, I have not forgotten about this thread but have not been able to get back to it in a timely fashion, but I appreciate everyone taking time to reply.

I agree with everyone, more volume is what I need. I have seen some pullup programs (and breifly tried one for a week or so last winter) of all sorts of sets of accessory exercises/3x a week sort of setup, which I found tiring acutally doing 30-40 min of concentrated accessory work in addition to S&S almost everyday, compared to GTG.

In reflecting on what I feel during a pullup, it's mainly that just as I get past 90 degrees (like maybe bridge of nose level to the bar), I feel like my lats disengage, and the upper traps start to shrug, moreso with the actual pullup attempt, vs doing a negative pullup. Initiating the pullup feels stronger than in the past though. I think if I lost some weight as well life would be easier too.


My setup is a bit faulty, my bathroom bar is pretty high, and it is difficult even using the bathroom counter to get myself up high enough over it that my lats are engaged first athough I try to ensure that before I lower myself. I am thinking lowering the bar is a better idea (have taken it out but need to get a stripped screw out). Right now the last few days have been using a bar in the basement, and a ladder to get up to it...for sure not as convenient for doing GTG. I will try to get a video today or tomorrow into this thread of a pullup attempt on this, feels different with not as much impediment of where my head ends up going and the setup/start at the top feels better (not shrugging shoulders),

Mainly have been doing a mix of all sorts of things like negatives, starting at the top and stopping for 5 sec or so at 90 degrees, etc, and a pullup every few days. I think I need to find one or two sorts of boosts/accessory movements, and stick to it for a while perhaps then reevaluate.

One thing I have toyed with, is a set of rings (I know grip/stability is different) and something simular to this, not sure if this would be worth it just for this sticking point at the top (although I know rings would be useful in the future for other stuff) Thoughts??.



Rings... yes
 
I did do all the other things before like you did, flex hangs with slow negatives, lots of active hangs, tons of ring rows or rows on a bar. What I think makes the difference is staying in your confort zone, meaning your brain not going into panic mode because of being so close to a 1RM when training. Negatives in my opinion are usually close to a 1RM and should be used sparingly. Ring/bar rows were not close enough to the vertical pulling movement to offer enough carryover (without being useless obviously). When having the feet on the floor it takes away maybe 50%+ of the weight you have to lift but you can maintain almost the same trajectory that you do in a real pull-up. That way you can do good volume without that much fatigue. I'd aim for last rep of last set to be harder but made all the other ones kind of easy, aiming for a 50% of max reps when doing sets of 5, meaning I could of done 4-5 more reps in the set when I stopped.

Like I said before if Mr Canuck can help with both hands on your shoulder blades adding enough help so you can do a solid 3-5 reps while having a few reps left after the set you could start with 3x3 or 3x5 and slowly add reps and sets focusing on the assisted pulls for 3-4 weeks with maybe just some active hangs you could really get to see if they help more than other methods.

Sorry if I keep rambling about this method. This should be the last time I insist on it.

I'll add a +1 for this! At SFB we called it "ACE" for Artificially Controlled Environment. From the SFB manual, "ACE is a radical Eastern European training model.... ACE is whatever helps the athlete to perform at a level way above his current ability, to live his motor future. An expert assisted rep..." In other words, assisted by another person to control the degree of difficulty. The disadvantage is that the amount of assistance is somewhat imprecise and not measurable, but don't worry about that. It's very effective.

Again from the SFB manual, "Applied to pull-ups, the correct way to ACE them is to pushup on the trainee's mid back." Holding the ankles is not recommended.
 
I’ve mentioned this many times to anyone who will listen... :cool:... but rigging a counterweight / pulley system allows one to control the assistance with micro-precision (if desired). It requires no partner. It in no way compromises the mechanics of doing a proper pull-up.
It takes a bit of effort to build this, and a few bucks... but it’s really chump change (in both effort and $$$) for someone who is really motivated.
I rehabbed from fairly significant shoulder reconstruction surgery using this method.

It is also a gateway to one arm pull-ups and other advanced pull-up variations for those so inclined...
 
but rigging a counterweight / pulley system allows one to control the assistance with micro-precision
It's probably the best way to go, I'll try and see if I can improvise a system.

Do you have pictures or links to DIY systems? I'll look some up but you might have found great ones already.

@Anna C thanks for the precisions, I remember learning it from a bodyweight workshop with my SF instructor Louka, but it wasn't an official SFB workshop and it was a couple of years ago.
 
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