Q&D Alternate Pre-Reqs?

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
I think there has been some discussion of this already, but can there be alternate entry requirements to the Quick and Dead world? I know the book suggests Simple standard, but can there be other ways to determine if a trainee is “advanced” enough to benefit? Maybe with Barbell lifts?

Has anyone tried it without having met the prereq? What happened?
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
I think there has been some discussion of this already, but can there be alternate entry requirements to the Quick and Dead world? I know the book suggests Simple standard, but can there be other ways to determine if a trainee is “advanced” enough to benefit? Maybe with Barbell lifts?

Has anyone tried it without having met the prereq? What happened?
Good question...
(I get the feeling that a lot of folks have launched into Q&D without even being able to spell S&S)
 

DuncanGB

Level 6 Valued Member
Has anyone tried it without having met the prereq? What happened?
This 51 year-old didn't fret over the prereq. or not being "an advanced minimalist" when deciding to give Q&D a whirl...

I was doing A+A snatches with 28kg for repeats of 5 reps plus LED when the unbearable heat and humidity of summertime Tokyo made me change to Q&D 044 with the 24 a.m. 4x/week for 6 weeks plus daily mobility/"youth- restoring calisthenics" (an unstructured blend of Super Joints and Great Gama Protocol)

What happened?
1) got stronger - able to do Q&D 015 snatches with the 28 - i.e. repeats of 10 reps
2) passed the Masters (20kg) snatch test
3) got even stronger - now doing A+A snatches with 32kg

No regrets - reckon mitochondria in fast-twitch fibers don't give a fig about prereqs...
 
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Bauer

Level 6 Valued Member
Well, for the pushups there is a standard: 1xBW Bench Press, or 15-20 powerful pushups.

For the swings and snatches I would guess: Technique should be on point and you should be able to do hardstyle sessions with at least 100 reps (A+A or S&S style). The specific weight probably does not matter as much.
 

SteveR

Level 2 Valued Member
At 68 and 175lbs and fairly late to kettle bell training, I'm not sure that Simple will ever be a prominent goal for me.

However, I am using Q+D plan 015 to build my pushup numbers and rucking conditioning.

At 5 sets now (50 swings + 50 pushups) I am seeing benefits in multiple areas. And I'm not sure my pushups really qualify as power pushups although I tend to do them fast.

Maybe I'm just using it as a high level guide but I expect that I will be plenty happy with the results when I hit the 100 swings + 100 pushups per 015 workout.
 
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Alexander Halford

Level 7 Valued Member
Timed Simple + snatch technique practiced, if snatch is chosen.
Barbell lifts - depends. No grind can define that. I remember well touching kettlebell first time - being able to deadlift 200kg and sucking at 24kg swing. So... Snatch or clean - probably.
 

Pete S

Level 6 Valued Member
On page 10 of the print version of Q&D, it states that "Q&D is not for beginners...experienced athletes improved the most." The reasons for this were three-fold:
  • "Q&D training demands a foundation of strength...a rock-solid midsection that comes from paying dues...(as a) way of expressing one's max power."
  • "Power is a learned skill. " An athlete needs "to just explode against a moderate weight."
  • Finally, personality. Are you a "cat," a "dog," or a "persistence hunter?"
So, if you have pursued an athletic lifestyle and been around StrongFirst for a fair while, can generate explosive power in your exercises, and preferably are a "cat" or at least a "dog," then you seem to be a candidate. Now on to detailed entry requirements.

To those that have access to an accelerometer or force plate, the tests are 5 reps at a time for swings, pushups, and/or snatches with various resistances to determine the resistance that yields the highest power for starting weights.

For those of us without the above technologies, it is a matter of "sprinting" for 20-30 seconds to determine a starting resistance for the swings, pushups, or snatches. It is important that these movements all be explosive and that you understand the difference between normal and explosive.

That said, I am presently in my second iteration of Q&D. The first time I did Q&D was this time last year and, of course, I did not achieve S&S timeless, Simple, or Sinister, or even close prior to starting Q&D. However, I have had an active life of 30 years in the military (SF), MA, running, weights, and about 17 years on and off with kettlebells. I know how to put power in a movement and explode. And, I am a "cat"; while I consider myself a cool "cat," some of you may consider me an old "cat" at 78 years of age.

One serious problem kept me from starting earlier than I did: I could not do sufficient explosive pushups. In my late 50's I started power lifting and like so many of us, I succumbed to incorrect bench lift form and wound up with rotator cuff injuries. Curiously, while I could execute military presses (single or double) or even dips, bench presses were painful. So as part of recovery, I avoided pushups. Years later when I tried to do pushups I would experience loud snapping sounds in both elbows. This was diagnosed as "slapping triceps syndrome." In later years this friction and noise led me to avoid pushups completely.

I could avoid the friction and slapping by generating a tremendous amount of tension and slowly grinding out only about 5 strict pushups that were nowhere near explosive. Still, I wanted to do Q&D. Building up pushups from this level looked like too long a time for me. However, the pushup long sprint test states that if "unable to sustain high power, high tempo, and impeccable technique for at least 20 seconds, the resistance is too high...repeat the test with a band deload." WHOA!

@Fabio came up with a BRILLIANT deload by looping a band around the pelvis that actually helps you maintain strict body position while giving a slight boost to your pushups. This was a game changer for me. I went from 5 grinding pushups in 30 seconds to 21 reps with the band without the accompanying slapping triceps. These were executed with a lot of power and felt like when I did the clapping pushups eons ago. After 12 weeks of Q&D, I increased the band assisted pushups to 28 reps despite lowering band resistance. I also went from the aforementioned 5 unassisted pushups to 18 within 30 seconds. BTW, swings increased from 17 one-armed swings to 20, and 19 two-armed to 22 for 30 seconds.

There seems to be a lot of mythology and folklore being promulgated by the doctrinists about having to complete S&S prior to Q&D, an inference at best. Life is too short not to taste and try things of interest. I will say that I have had the pleasure of experiencing many of Pavel's and other StrongFirst programs. Q&D ranks as one of the best and most enjoyable if you are comfortable and disciplined enough to follow the schedule exactly.
 
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Sauli

Level 7 Valued Member
I have done timeless simple back in the days when there was no timeless yet, I have pressed 44kg once... Technically I'm not advanced enough for q&d, but it's great program anyway and I do it again after few weeks of complexes propably...
If somebody wants to do, they should, but they have to know the lifts well. It's good prereq..
 

DuncanGB

Level 6 Valued Member
There seems to be a lot of mythology and folklore being promulgated by the doctrinists about having to complete S&S prior to Q&D, an inference at best. Life is too short not to taste and try things of interest. I will say that I have had the pleasure of experiencing many of Pavel's and other StrongFirst programs. Q&D ranks as one of the best and most enjoyable if you are comfortable and disciplined enough to follow the schedule exactly.
Reckon this may be one of those prickle 'n' goo stand-offs: prickly sticklers to the orthodoxy of the simple standard vs. heretics firing can(n)ons from their gooey canoes...


I agree with @Pete S - if you're a fast-twitch cat or a dog with a bit of mongrel, have an activity history that involved power-repeats, and/or a type-A personality then Q&D may well be for you...
 
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caddo2000

Level 5 Valued Member
@Fabio came up with a BRILLIANT reload by looping a band around the pelvis that actually helps you maintain strict body position while giving a slight boost to your pushups. This was a game changer for me. I went from 5 grinding pushups in 30 seconds to 21 reps with the band without the accompanying slapping triceps. These were executed with a lot of power and felt like when I did the clapping pushups eons ago. After 12 weeks of Q&D, I increased the band assisted pushups to 28 reps despite lowering band resistance. I also went from the aforementioned 5 unassisted pushups to 18 within 30 seconds. BTW, swings increased from 17 one-armed swings to 20, and 19 two-armed to 22 for 30 seconds.
Is this in the book or in an article somewhere in the site? Can you point me to the right place?
 
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