Q&D and Endurance Performance

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
In the book there is an anecdotal example of somebody who chopped hours off their 100 mile MTB race time, with Q&D as the only change to their training. It jumped out at me because pre-COVID, that is what I wanted to do.

It also jumped out at me as it sure sounded like it belongs in the “if it seems to good to be true, it probably is” file. It’s been bothering me for awhile now.

Does anybody know any more about that example? Does anybody have any similar experiences?
 

Erik Hournou

Level 6 Valued Member
Yeah but we don't know what their training was like before.
Maybe they developed more mitochondria because of q&d wich allowed them to pedal more powerfully troughout the race while aerobically recovering. Just a guess trough.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
I suppose ‘anything’ is possible, but you are right, it’s all just speculation, without knowing the details...
 

Derek Toshner

Level 5 Valued Member
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I’d like to comment. I’ve been using Q&D techniques for a long time. I took 033D and progressed to 044C, then took plans from StrongEndurance, and created a template for All-Terrain Conditioning. These plans include progressions from the 024 AnT test, 060, and 18. Anyway, we progressed to snatching for an hour. I felt like a machine. I wanted to test my abilities so I ran a mile at 7:30 pace breathing entirely through my nose. I took 7:30 rest and repeated this 2 more times, again breathing entirely through my nose. The following week I wanted to see how far I could comfortably run with my 60lb backpack on. I took off, and ran 10 miles. We continued to progress the protocols by increasing volume, then decreasing volume when increasing density, and working to increase volume of the higher density protocol. I’ll have an article coming out about it shortly, but we ended up summiting 7 mountains in 8 days in a hiking/climbing/mountaineering adventure. We’re now using the plan to train for Frozen Otter, a 64-mile race in the dead of Wisconsin winter. Stay tuned for my article, explaining more detail, as well as our results from the race mid-Jan
 

Provx

Level 4 Valued Member
I’d like to comment. I’ve been using Q&D techniques for a long time. I took 033D and progressed to 044C, then took plans from StrongEndurance, and created a template for All-Terrain Conditioning. These plans include progressions from the 024 AnT test, 060, and 18. Anyway, we progressed to snatching for an hour. I felt like a machine. I wanted to test my abilities so I ran a mile at 7:30 pace breathing entirely through my nose. I took 7:30 rest and repeated this 2 more times, again breathing entirely through my nose. The following week I wanted to see how far I could comfortably run with my 60lb backpack on. I took off, and ran 10 miles. We continued to progress the protocols by increasing volume, then decreasing volume when increasing density, and working to increase volume of the higher density protocol. I’ll have an article coming out about it shortly, but we ended up summiting 7 mountains in 8 days in a hiking/climbing/mountaineering adventure. We’re now using the plan to train for Frozen Otter, a 64-mile race in the dead of Wisconsin winter. Stay tuned for my article, explaining more detail, as well as our results from the race mid-Jan
Very cool sir, not familiar with 024 or 18 protocols but the results speak for themselves. Looking forward to the article
 

heyholetsgo

Level 1 Valued Member
I’d like to comment. I’ve been using Q&D techniques for a long time. I took 033D and progressed to 044C, then took plans from StrongEndurance, and created a template for All-Terrain Conditioning. These plans include progressions from the 024 AnT test, 060, and 18. Anyway, we progressed to snatching for an hour. I felt like a machine. I wanted to test my abilities so I ran a mile at 7:30 pace breathing entirely through my nose. I took 7:30 rest and repeated this 2 more times, again breathing entirely through my nose. The following week I wanted to see how far I could comfortably run with my 60lb backpack on. I took off, and ran 10 miles. We continued to progress the protocols by increasing volume, then decreasing volume when increasing density, and working to increase volume of the higher density protocol. I’ll have an article coming out about it shortly, but we ended up summiting 7 mountains in 8 days in a hiking/climbing/mountaineering adventure. We’re now using the plan to train for Frozen Otter, a 64-mile race in the dead of Wisconsin winter. Stay tuned for my article, explaining more detail, as well as our results from the race mid-Jan
awesome
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
I’d like to comment. I’ve been using Q&D techniques for a long time. I took 033D and progressed to 044C, then took plans from StrongEndurance, and created a template for All-Terrain Conditioning. These plans include progressions from the 024 AnT test, 060, and 18. Anyway, we progressed to snatching for an hour. I felt like a machine. I wanted to test my abilities so I ran a mile at 7:30 pace breathing entirely through my nose. I took 7:30 rest and repeated this 2 more times, again breathing entirely through my nose. The following week I wanted to see how far I could comfortably run with my 60lb backpack on. I took off, and ran 10 miles. We continued to progress the protocols by increasing volume, then decreasing volume when increasing density, and working to increase volume of the higher density protocol. I’ll have an article coming out about it shortly, but we ended up summiting 7 mountains in 8 days in a hiking/climbing/mountaineering adventure. We’re now using the plan to train for Frozen Otter, a 64-mile race in the dead of Wisconsin winter. Stay tuned for my article, explaining more detail, as well as our results from the race mid-Jan
This is what I am talking about... actual documented training details, and documented real world results. Good stuff!
 

conor78

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Agreed. This looks great. DT has been in the trenches with all of these protocols. Looking forward to the article.
 

Coyotl

Level 6 Valued Member
I’d like to comment. I’ve been using Q&D techniques for a long time. I took 033D and progressed to 044C, then took plans from StrongEndurance, and created a template for All-Terrain Conditioning. These plans include progressions from the 024 AnT test, 060, and 18. Anyway, we progressed to snatching for an hour. I felt like a machine. I wanted to test my abilities so I ran a mile at 7:30 pace breathing entirely through my nose. I took 7:30 rest and repeated this 2 more times, again breathing entirely through my nose. The following week I wanted to see how far I could comfortably run with my 60lb backpack on. I took off, and ran 10 miles. We continued to progress the protocols by increasing volume, then decreasing volume when increasing density, and working to increase volume of the higher density protocol. I’ll have an article coming out about it shortly, but we ended up summiting 7 mountains in 8 days in a hiking/climbing/mountaineering adventure. We’re now using the plan to train for Frozen Otter, a 64-mile race in the dead of Wisconsin winter. Stay tuned for my article, explaining more detail, as well as our results from the race mid-Jan
Can’t wait to read this article. Good luck with the race, have fun.
 

vegpedlr

Level 6 Valued Member
I’d like to comment. I’ve been using Q&D techniques for a long time. I took 033D and progressed to 044C, then took plans from StrongEndurance, and created a template for All-Terrain Conditioning. These plans include progressions from the 024 AnT test, 060, and 18. Anyway, we progressed to snatching for an hour. I felt like a machine. I wanted to test my abilities so I ran a mile at 7:30 pace breathing entirely through my nose. I took 7:30 rest and repeated this 2 more times, again breathing entirely through my nose. The following week I wanted to see how far I could comfortably run with my 60lb backpack on. I took off, and ran 10 miles. We continued to progress the protocols by increasing volume, then decreasing volume when increasing density, and working to increase volume of the higher density protocol. I’ll have an article coming out about it shortly, but we ended up summiting 7 mountains in 8 days in a hiking/climbing/mountaineering adventure. We’re now using the plan to train for Frozen Otter, a 64-mile race in the dead of Wisconsin winter. Stay tuned for my article, explaining more detail, as well as our results from the race mid-Jan
This is what I was hoping for. Sort of. A lot of jargon there I don’t understand, and I think I’m not alone. The only thing I understood was snatch for an hour, breathing through the nose.

Hopefully the article will clear some of that up. For those of us without the means or opportunity to attend one of those seminars, it all looks pretty arcane and mysterious. As mentioned already, specificity is important, so what kind benefits and in what circumstances do Q&D protocols apply?

I’m still really curious about that book example.
 

North

Level 5 Valued Member
@vegpedlr I could probably shave hours off my 100 mile MTB time by purchasing a mountain bike. Certainly is more likely for myself (I’ve never been in a MTB race) to shave hours off a time than someone like yourself with experience and years of training.

Seriously, I think GPP is good prep for most activities and respect @Derek Toshner. S&S delivered. ROP delivered. Simple strength for covid delivered. Q&D will probably deliver ( I haven’t followed it, yet).
 

heyholetsgo

Level 1 Valued Member
This is what I was hoping for. Sort of. A lot of jargon there I don’t understand, and I think I’m not alone. The only thing I understood was snatch for an hour, breathing through the nose.

Hopefully the article will clear some of that up. For those of us without the means or opportunity to attend one of those seminars, it all looks pretty arcane and mysterious. As mentioned already, specificity is important, so what kind benefits and in what circumstances do Q&D protocols apply?

I’m still really curious about that book example.
I think by reading and doing Quick and the Dead you can get a decent idea and be well on your well way to the goals Derek outlined.

My guess is once you do that you could hire Derek to write a program for you to get the second piece which is only available at a strong endurance seminar or ATC.
 
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North

Level 5 Valued Member
Above comment about buying a bike is tongue in cheek. Sometimes my humor doesn’t come through. 🙄
 

ohnbye

Level 5 Valued Member
As a previously elite xc mountain biker, I’m highly sceptical Q&D caused the improvements noted in the book. There are so many variables in the mix, especially in a sport such as mountain biking, that it wouldn’t be possible to say. Terrain, weather, etc play a huge role (headwind and slippy ground vs tailwind and good traction). How you perform on the day varies massively too and timing the peak is some sort of art form as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps the athlete was overtrained and switching to a low volume plan made a big difference that way (though the book suggests it was an addition).
None of this is to say Q&D isn’t a great protocol - my personal experience of it is that it is - and I think it’s great for mountain bikers as GPP too. One important quality I think mountain bikers tend to overlook is the value of quick power production in being able to maintain/carry their speed. It’s an endurance sport but with bursts of power required- neither quality on its own is sufficient.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
As a previously elite xc mountain biker, I’m highly sceptical Q&D caused the improvements noted in the book. There are so many variables in the mix, especially in a sport such as mountain biking, that it wouldn’t be possible to say. Terrain, weather, etc play a huge role (headwind and slippy ground vs tailwind and good traction). How you perform on the day varies massively too and timing the peak is some sort of art form as far as I’m concerned. Perhaps the athlete was overtrained and switching to a low volume plan made a big difference that way (though the book suggests it was an addition).
None of this is to say Q&D isn’t a great protocol - my personal experience of it is that it is - and I think it’s great for mountain bikers as GPP too. One important quality I think mountain bikers tend to overlook is the value of quick power production in being able to maintain/carry their speed. It’s an endurance sport but with bursts of power required- neither quality on its own is sufficient.
I share your skepticism.... and thoughts both on MTB and Q&D....
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

As a disclaimer, I will never be as experienced in running / moutain biking / cycling as @vegpedlr @offwidth @ohnbye but from what I have noticed to this day, which does not necessarily concerns only Q&D:
- when I added burpees to my regular routine, my running increase
- when I stopped burpees, to do swings (S&S) instead, my running keep increasing
- when I stopped S&S, to do rucking, my running keep increasing

Nonetheless, my times / distances depends on
- how I feel this day (sometimes I just walk a lot during the day, so I tackle the training while not being fresh)
- if the terrain is easy (dry, etc...) I can go long and fast
- if it rains, or if the terrain is full of mud, etc... I do not go that fast

What I just want to say is that it is sometimes difficult to say "I run better since I do X". Most of the time, this is a combination of factors. For instance, I stopped doing burpees even if I was progressing well using them. I just wanted to switch the routine. Does that mean that swings are "more effective" than burpees ?

There are also a difference between an "anecdote" and a general rule. I think in ETK, it is mentioned that C&P training can lead to a one arm chin up. Well, of course it can help to an extent, but saying that it necessarily leads to it...

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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