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Kettlebell Q&D - Dice Rolling - an example

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Adachi

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In response to the earlier summertime Programming (or, lack thereof) thread,
My brain decided that i wanna try scheduling another cycle purposefully.
I thought using this as an example of how effective the dice rolling algorithm works, might be of interest.
for those of us who have some difficulty with programming - dice rolling rules may be of assistance.

Based on Q&D 044, dice rolling rules
I went ahead and rolled dice for a 12-week schedule.
Here's one example of how this loading scheme might go.

I'll be snatching 24kg MWF for 12 weeks.
I've scheduled this out on my calendar from the end of July till the beginning of October.

1657819044866.png

This chart doesn't show the variations of 5/4 vs 10/2 rep/set schemes, which vary throughout.
This almost resembles a more carefully planned cycle, that I've seen elsewhere.
Looks good from here.
We'll see how it goes.
 
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In response to the earlier summertime Programming (or, lack thereof) thread,
My brain decided that i wanna try scheduling another cycle purposefully.
I thought using this as an example of how effective the dice rolling algorithm works, might be of interest.
for those of us who have some difficulty with programming - dice rolling rules may be of assistance.

Based on Q&D 044, dice rolling rules
I went ahead and rolled dice for a 12-week schedule.
Here's one example of how this loading scheme might go.

I'll be snatching 24kg MWF for 12 weeks.
I've scheduled this out on my calendar from the end of July till the beginning of October.

View attachment 18386

This chart doesn't show the variations of 5/4 vs 10/2 rep/set schemes, which vary throughout.
This almost resembles a more carefully planned cycle, that I've seen elsewhere.
Looks good from here.
We'll see how it goes.
I really like this and appreciate you mapping it out. Keep us all posted on how it goes. I might try this on a barbell lift routine.
 
I was just perusing some threads and realizing that this is some weekly undulating periodization if I ever saw any.
the alternation of set and rep schemes and loading all throughout this cycle.
not to mention the movement rotation (Snatch and Swing+Pushup )(which is occurring due to some wrist strain for myself)

1658335539368.png
 
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I got around to looking at the data again and adding in the % delta values from session to session.

I enjoy observing the range of delta values from 20 to 150%, and I look forward to the randomness of the load having its effects.

yesterday I had the first 80 rep session and I experienced a sensation in my quads that I'm accustomed to feeling in the aftermath of heavy-ish deadlifts for me, which is around 300lbs at this point. ~80% 1RM. that muscle congestion that I experienced later getting out of my chair is something that I'm used to feeling with lifting a barbell. I'm not used to sensing it from my kettlebell practice.

Hopefully, I'm stronger, and hopefully, I am expressing more power, than before. if so, it would seem there's some truth to the stronger and more powerful (more explosive) athletes getting more out of Q&D than others. it would seem that the more powerfully the movement is performed, the larger its effects; at least, in this context.

I'm still noticing small positive changes in hypertrophy at the quads and shoulders. they aren't getting smaller, and the skin is ... slightly more featureful ... than before. I noticed yesterday that there's a new divot forming on the thigh. I notice these visible changes across weeks and months, and they currently still seem to be headed in the correct direction in spite of the "decreased load" I'm experiencing, after moving off of a 2-a-day session schedule; to a Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule.

 
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~6 weeks in now.
------------------------
Q&D Chart
--------------------------
a few thoughts...

For me, Less than 1 hour per week of Q&D is big enough to be the whole thing.

Recent History
This is my 3rd or 4th time taking a cycle of Q&D. I think the book's admonition that this program is not for beginners is true. In fact, I think it's more true than I thought. more power -> more results. I got more out of this cycle than before. I will probably continue getting more out of Q&D in the near future. But I've done strength cycles between Q&D, and every time the Q&D cycle gets harder and easier. the sets cut deeper, the bell flies faster, and my breath gets heavier between sets. But, I recover more quickly between series.

New sensations this cycle.
Some days made my thighs feel similar to hefty deadlifts. I believe this new sensation speaks to the increased output I'm experiencing. The grip and biceps are more challenged than ever, however, my wrist continues to feel better, even though I'm snatching, which seems counter-intuitive. it may be unrelated. I continue to observe slight amounts of Hypertrophy in the glutes, thighs, arms, and shoulders. from time to time I take note of new terrain features as they develop. It's mild, but notable.

Currently
I'm feeling a bit drained from travel, but overall - at less than an hour a week, I'm still noticing signs of progress both outwardly and inwardly. one point I made in another thread was about technique. spreading my feet wider than is psychologically preferable, enough for me to think it looks weird, anyways, has upped my output in the snatch. sets are shorter and more powerful. and for some reason, I'm more likely to respond by adding a bit to the eccentric portion of the snatch which loads my grip and biceps something fierce.

Looking forward
This Friday will actually be my first 100 rep session doing 5/4, ever. somehow, I imagine that'll be less pleasant than 10/2, by a long shot. I'm thinking of doing King Sized Killer after this, just cuz I like the snatch. but my 32 is too heavy and my 24kg is too light. going back to Iron cardio is also a contender. And I just got Easy Muscle so maybe that one. But, maybe a cycle of A+A snatches is due. Who knows? Currently starting out on Geoff's P3 protocol during off days. and periodically doing the McGill Big 3 sporadically throughout the week, which seems to help with my back issues.

To infinity and beyond
I'm about halfway through, here. I could probably switch to something else if I needed to. but, for now, it seems to be working. Maybe could add in those minimalist deadlifts for a little extra limit strength. Maybe I'll run 033 for a while. Maybe I'll switch things up. But for all the things I've come to learn about A+A and Strong Endurance, and Iron Cardio, the value-proposition of Q&D is still so high, for me, that it's a great stand-alone program. and it's very minimalist.
 
Great review.
I see sometimes Q&D videos here and there. In most of them, people doing it are not powerful enough. However, as you stated, there is where lies the great ROI of Q&D.
I think StrongFirst should realize some videos with the correct execution of an "overspeed" snatch / push-up / swing.
 
There are many ways to measure progress.

In the spirit of @Harald Motz 's Alactic + Aerobic thread ... today, I point toward seeing the differences between a similar practice compared to an earlier point in training.

the same load - renders as easier in my perception,
this is in spite of...
  • a mild injury on the mend
  • hotter, worse weather
  • compromised sleep, for various reasons:
    • Travel
    • Kids
    • Work
    • etc.
So, today I take notice of how the 80 rep days keep getting easier.
  • there was some conditioning from 4x 100 rep sessions, during this time
  • there was some technique improvement from a wider stance yielding faster snatches
  • the revised technique also affected my practice
    • shifted some of the load from my shoulders to my biceps and grip
    • this was due to a tendency to sprinkle in some Overspeed reps
    • I attribute this to a sensation of ease, in the sets eliciting a response of increased effort.
today's practice clearly struck me as having a lower difficulty
adaptations seem to continue
all signs point to steady as she goes

1661788944801.png
 
Great review.
I see sometimes Q&D videos here and there. In most of them, people doing it are not powerful enough. However, as you stated, there is where lies the great ROI of Q&D.
I think StrongFirst should realize some videos with the correct execution of an "overspeed" snatch / push-up / swing.
Good point.

There were video samples of a female Italian boxer for the pushups when it came out.
This article shows power pushups (although starting at the top):

Arryn Grogan had good videos of overspeed snatching on insta. Harald Motz, too.

Not sure if this is helpful for anyone :)
 
Today I observe and compare a new hypothetical cycle that I just rolled dice for to see what it'd look like.
here are some of the overall numbers from my current Q&D cycle. scheduled on Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays.

1663862799172.png

Here are the overall totals from the next hypothetical cycle.

1663863112885.png

I included in the next cycle variations in what days would be practiced - for me that means Monday thru Friday is in.
I also included variations between plans 033 and 044.
here is an abbreviated look at the schedule.

1663863032068.png

I was skeptical that the long-range average would land so close to the loading in the old standby MWF schedule.
but the averages land very closely together.

averages
~ 3 sessions/week
~ 3 series / session

chaos in a box, indeed.

P.S.
I'm a couple of weeks from the end of the current schedule as it stands and I'm looking to decide about my next cycle before the end.
still weighing my options.
So many good options - it almost doesn't matter which way I go, as long as I pick a direction.
 
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Almost done.
So, all these days have come and gone. I missed a few sessions during my travel; tried to make it up. I missed a few due to illness; just decided to let them go. I have 2 dates left this week before this cycle closes.

1664815831004.png


I'm looking at the next cycle and a couple of things from this cycle come to mind.
I couldn't help but notice that these sessions got easier between series, and harder between sets. Maybe a strange idea, but my perception was that I was having trouble recovering between sets, but my recovery between series and after was coming on sooner than in the past. I like to imagine that this speaks to an increase in power/strength. I do like to imagine that it's an expression of increased aerobic lability; what pop fitness seems to term Heart-Rate-Variability. But, I am not really sure.

I was doing sets of ten power pushups the other day in 015 timing opposite 10 32kg swings. I found that my pecs told me around 50 reps in that I wasn't going to be going airborne anymore. So actually I might need a band to assist to do plan 033. I have no such bands right now. At 245lbs bodyweight, these pushups going airborne are tough stuff.

Today's snatching, 4 series (80 reps, 5/4) was even easier still. got through it without incident. didn't break a sweat. and felt relatively good going into the final sets and still experienced breath recovery well before the end of the 2 minutes rest after the 4th series. In my 5 series sessions, this was definitely not always the case. While I noticed the ability to speak - that's a different marker for me than the drop off of urgency in the breath; which correlates with a dropoff in heart rate.

The WTHE of easier stair climbs is definitely there. I appreciate this. it's easy for me to gauge whether it's being eased to a point of comfort (since my home has a flight of stairs in it). Bounding up and down stairs is still easier for me than I care to improve. I quite literally run up and down stairs to retrieve something or carry laundry back and forth. That's most of the capacity for cardio that I want to develop.

Overall, plan 044 with a 24kg bell seems to deliver fairly well on all-around fitness; with a health twist. I feel good, my total time investment has been less than one hour per week. maybe eating clean helped. almost every day I eat 1 lb of ground beef with cheese sprinkled over it and scooped on pork rinds. with some yogurt on some days. But, here I am at the end of this cycle. it isn't clear that another plan 044 for 12 weeks wouldn't continue to deliver for me.

I think I understand more that this program is not for beginners. the stronger I get the more it pays me back. this has been the toughest cycle of Q&D, yet; even though I'm stronger now than ever. I've only ever used the 24kg bell with Q&D and this one was notably more payoff, with harder reps. it's my recollection that previous Q&D cycles were not as perceptibly difficult within the session. I think revisiting Q&D after gaining even more strength will reveal that that trend line will continue.

more strength → more power → more payoff for Q&D protocols.

there's an old phrase: it takes money to make money.
well, maybe, it takes power to make power.

I have a long way to go
... on becoming the master of the 24kg Snatch. It may not seem like a lot, but when I really put the oomph into the reps, the reps push back, and I feel plenty drained from the set. Makes me think Iron cardio/A+A is completely viable with just the 24kg bell. there are logistical reasons why this might be preferable. what economists call minimization of Transaction Costs. just keeping my 24kg bell stashed under my desk has made things very easy for me.

I found it startling
The seasons changed. temps went from the 90s, hot and humid - to the 70s cool and dry, recovery went through the roof. I was recovering my breath from a series 30 seconds into the rest period with ease. very nice feeling, but makes me think cardio thoughts. probably should fit in more LISS or whatever.

What's next
I'm looking at a barbell for the next cycle. it's undeniable that every time I pick up a barbell I get an increase in strength. I tried mixing mini sessions with Two-a-days between 1 session of snatching and 1 session of PttP style lifting. for me and my recovery that was too much. Looking at maybe a reload cycle. 5x5 / One lift a day / (Heavy/light) / (Deadlift/Floor Press). basically 100 reps a week.

Options: (quick thoughts)
Reload: Testing and structure of the routine are slightly more straightforward than Built Strong, after all.
Power to the People: cycling of weights is also an option - although a barbell side press is still something I'm not really well set up for. Kettlebell Press/Push-Press or Floor Press can be substituted. I'm still working my way up to pressing the 48kg, anyways.
Built Strong: I'm looking through it now and it looks good but has some long days that I can't promise myself I'll have time for.

if not barbell
A+A style reps: honestly I'm not that strong, and I have a lot to gain still from 5 reps EMOM or so.
Iron Cardio: an incredibly flexible approach that allows me to make it as big or as small as I like.
Strongfirst Kettlebells: very straightforward progression. would have to swap my bell at work.
 
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Poor Training Advice

This article is fraught with poor training advice.

Let's break some of it down...

Explosive Pushup Power Plan

The next program was specifically designed to increase explosive pushup power. For those looking to hit that 15-20 rep set of power pushups, this is the plan for you.

You will experience some muscle burn and fatigue, especially in Phase 1. Follow the volume-waving guidelines, letting your body and the previous day’s performance tell you whether to choose more sets or fewer today.\

The Issue With This

1) Power is optimally developed with Repetitions that are less than 5 per set.


Performing a "15-20 rep set of power pushups" is Endurance Training; not Power Training.

2) Muscle Burn and Fatigue

This is produced due to Lactate (not Lactic Acid) build up in the muscles.

Lactate dampents Power, Maxium Strength and Speed Proction.

Additional Tips for Maximal Pushup Gains

Once you can do a powerful set of 15-20 explosive pushups...

An Oxymoron

As Repetitions go up, Force Production (Maximum Strength, Power and Speed ) go down.

The "Super" Fast Twitch Type IIb/x and Fast Twitch Type IIa Muscle Fiber involvement decrease and eventually are no longer being trained and developed.

A "Set of 15-20" Push Up is Endurance Training it does very little to increase Power or Maximum Strength.

This in part has to do with the...

Phosphagen Energy System

Research shows that the apex of Power, Maximum Strength and Speed Production occur in approximately the first 10 seconds.

After 10 second, these Strengths dramatically drop

Continuing to perform High Repetition in a movement downshift the workload to the Slow Twitch Type I Endurance Muscle Fiber.

If Strength Endurance is you objective that works.

For those interested Power, Maxium Strength and Speed development, it is counterproductive.
 
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@Kenny Croxdale

I think Jody, the author, is using Pavel's definition of a power push up as defined in Q&D. The one testing parameters call for finding a resistance with power push ups to perform them without loosing speed of movement for 30 seconds. So, not "power" in the traditional sense.

Also, if you read the article, you testing out your STANDARD PU and POWER PU, but the majority of the program has you training using the STANDARD PU. Once you get to the POWER PU, you are performing the sets in reps that are 15% of the RM for your STANDARD PU.

tomato, tom-ah-toe. either way, Jody is a good trainer and this article reads as good advice, IMO.
 
Today I observe and compare a new hypothetical cycle that I just rolled dice for to see what it'd look like.
here are some of the overall numbers from my current Q&D cycle. scheduled on Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays.

View attachment 19123

Here are the overall totals from the next hypothetical cycle.

View attachment 19126

I included in the next cycle variations in what days would be practiced - for me that means Monday thru Friday is in.
I also included variations between plans 033 and 044.
here is an abbreviated look at the schedule.

View attachment 19125

I was skeptical that the long-range average would land so close to the loading in the old standby MWF schedule.
but the averages land very closely together.

averages
~ 3 sessions/week
~ 3 series / session

chaos in a box, indeed.

P.S.
I'm a couple of weeks from the end of the current schedule as it stands and I'm looking to decide about my next cycle before the end.
still weighing my options.
So many good options - it almost doesn't matter which way I go, as long as I pick a direction.
This is the problem with die based variety; you may get daily or even weekly Delta20 variability but it is less likely week to week and rare month to month.

I've considered using a factor determined on the number of days in the month as a relative random number generator. If <31 days change the volume, and if 31 days stick with the original volume.

For example;

October gives 1=40, 2=60, 3=60, 4=80, 5=80, 6=100
November gives 1=50, 2=70, 3=70, 4=100, 5=100, 6=120

Or perhaps add a rep going between 5/4 and 6/4.

Sacrosanct to mess with the protocol though of course :)
Also, I must admit I've not yet run Q&D in anger despite having read it about six times.
 
This is the problem with die based variety; you may get daily or even weekly Delta20 variability but it is less likely week to week and rare month to month.

I've considered using a factor determined on the number of days in the month as a relative random number generator. If <31 days change the volume, and if 31 days stick with the original volume.

For example;

October gives 1=40, 2=60, 3=60, 4=80, 5=80, 6=100
November gives 1=50, 2=70, 3=70, 4=100, 5=100, 6=120

Or perhaps add a rep going between 5/4 and 6/4.

Sacrosanct to mess with the protocol though of course :)
Also, I must admit I've not yet run Q&D in anger despite having read it about six times.
interesting. Maybe I could try it with a shift in the recommended load from month to month.

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after this experience and being able to compare it to others.
I think the similar loading over time might be a feature, not a bug.

I think a comparison can be drawn. this reminds me of the paradox of the interval serial method.

the overall loading for the session stays the same between 10x10 every 3 minutes and a full session of Q&D. 100 reps. but the varied rest period has its own effects.

corollary...
the long-range average of the overall loading across weeks and months remains the same, but the varied timing between which days are practiced, and the varied recovery between sessions have their own effects on the practitioner.
 
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interesting. Maybe I could try it with a shift in the recommended load from month to month.

123456
4040606080100
4060606080100
4060808080100
40608080100100

after this experience and being able to compare it to others.
I think the similar loading over time might be a feature, not a bug.

I think a comparison can be drawn. this reminds me of the paradox of the interval serial method.

the overall loading for the session stays the same between 10x10 every 3 minutes and a full session of Q&D. 100 reps. but the varied rest period has its own effects.

corollary...
the long-range average of the overall loading across weeks and months remains the same, but the varied timing between which days are practiced, and the varied recovery between sessions have their own effects on the practitioner.
The table looks more like a linear progression volume wise. It would be interesting to plot it against some random die results to see.
I think the similar loading over time might be a feature
I'd say both KB-SF and Victorious both have monthly volume variation.
the varied rest period has its own effects
Perhaps a simple switching up the number of days per week is enough? Increasing 5 to 6 days per week results in +20% whereas 2 to 3 is +50%.
Sessions stay the same just increase volume with session count.
 
Perhaps a simple switching up the number of days per week is enough? Increasing 5 to 6 days per week results in +20% whereas 2 to 3 is +50%.
Sessions stay the same just increase volume with session count.
I did get some variation in a 5 Day/week schedule.
one week only had 1 day and one week had 4 days in a row.
Might be worth it to give this a try.

1664912682841.png
 
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