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Kettlebell Q&D: Does it make sense to apply the principles to reality-based self-protection training?

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Norbert

Norbert

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Hi guys!

I'm really glad I discovered the Q&D program! And while I'm only in week 4, I've noticed improvements already (more endurance, slightly more strength). I'm happy with it.

Please let me ask a question: I'm a full instructor for a reality-based self-protection style, and in our little school, we're constantly looking for good and solid training based on research. So I'm thinking, would it make sense to apply the Q&D programming to our heavy-bag work?

Right now, we're using something we call "ATP depletion training", and it's extremely taxing on the body and mind: we "pre-fatigue" the muscles with a 10-rep set of pushups, for instance, immediately followed by 5 clapping pushups, and then immediately followed by a set of 10 combos, like 10x3 palmstrikes.

An example "ATP depletion" training looks like this:
  • warmup
  • 10 pushups (2s down, 1s up)/5 clapping pushups/10x3 palmstrikes R-L-R (all back-to-back)
  • 1 minute rest
  • 20 steps duckwalk/5 jumps knee-to-chest/10x (soccer kick L+ soccer kick R + knee L + knee R) (all back-to-back)
  • 1 minute rest
  • 10 pullups/5 clapping pullups/10 x (palmstrike dominant hand+grab w/other hand+3 hammerfists with dominant hand) (all back-to-back)
  • 2 minute rest
  • repeat twice or three times
Our experience with that program is: if you give it your all, it's extremely demanding, and after reading Q&D, I'm not sure it really makes sense.

Would it make sense to use the Q&D format?
Like so:
  • 10–15 secs alternating palm strikes
  • rest till the minute is full
  • 10–15 secs alternating palm strikes
  • rest till the minute is full + 1 minute
  • new set
What are your opinions on this?
Thanks for your help, guys!


Norbert
 
Hello,

In my boxing gym, when our teacher who is at national level, makes us work on speed and power, we do as follows:
- pick up a combination (usually no more than 4 strikes)
- perform the combination as fast as we can
- long rest (45s) with very easy and smooth shadow boxing (most of the time, we do the above combo but slowly)
- repeat

He prefers working that way to target speed and power with a perfect technique. Indeed, the purest the technique, the fastest it is.

He is a big proponent of bodyweight for combat conditioning. Then, we mainly do intervals of bag work (usually, 15s all out and 15/20s of aerobic rest (hitting "softly"). Even in street fight, most of the fight are very short but intense. He advises us to go for LSD running (30 minutes) about 3 times a week.

Working on Q&D or even S&S is a good choice because it will allow you to go full out during the drill, but will also permit you to recover very fast from this bouts.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hey Pet',

thank you for your reply! Sounds good!
And yes, our mantra is also, "an altercation on the street should not take longer than a few seconds" :)
I know from experience that "street fights" (stupidest word I know) sap your energy like crazy, but I was hoping Q&D was the answer, or as Pavel writes in the book (I'm paraphrasing), "let's train to produce less acid instead of training to adjust to high acid levels".
So, again, thank you!

I just finished my workout for today, and I tried Q&D-ified heavy-bag work :)
I feel completely refreshed, and my strikes were a lot sharper and harder.

Yay! :)
 
Hello,

@Norbert
Yes Pavel provides excellent job regarding training protocols for real life expectations.

To be honest, since I run his protocols (S&S or A+A, etc..) I have never been out of breath during boxing (both technical drill and figthting). They are excellent protocols because they always let you fresh for whatever may happen

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
While I think you could adapt the Q&D work/rest timing to your practice, it should not be the default programming. In order to train for the fight, you have to train for the fight. Going hard for a minute or five still needs to be a core component.
 
I don't see why you couldn't apply it for some of your training, but your base ATP depletion mode has real value in that it trains you to fight under duress, mental and physical. That sort of training also mimics the stamina wipe you'll feel from a massive dose of adrenaline. Lastly, training to use technique in a fatigued state (with emphasis on maintaining form) will force you to use sound mechanics, since the proper way is generally the least energy demanding.
 
Hey Norbert.
An interesting question. I trained K Maga for 2 years and the conditioning element was generally slotted at the end of the class. Long long sets of push ups, sit ups etc. Mentally and physically taxing. The pressure drills in the class were conducted in a shorter format. Multiple attackers with pads and gloves etc. In these situations in it was clear A lot of the students lacked power and strength once the drill became a grappling exercise. From my current lens development would have been my focus. The instructor tried to maintain the techniques would override most civilians including rugby players.. anyhow S and S is hard to look past as it develops power and in grappling on the ground the TGU has great carryover. On the recent Pavel interview on J Rogan he mentions heavy bag work being conducted in pretty much a Q and D fashion and from my experience on heavy bags it works really well.
Replicating adrenal dump is another Q but certainly from a conditioning point of view Q and D looks a great fit for self defence. Best of luck with your business
 
Bunn said:
While I think you could adapt the Q&D work/rest timing to your practice, it should not be the default programming. In order to train for the fight, you have to train for the fight. Going hard for a minute or five still needs to be a core component.
Click to expand...

Recently, I've been attending an instructors program for M.A. (under the national Olympic Committee). It was clearly highlighted that all speedwork (such as focus pads) and power exercises (e.g. throwing dummies) should be done fresh. I would suggest avoiding much padwork and heavy bag in fatigued state and using the Q&D format when training with equipment.

ATP is depleted in sparring and rolling, although in self defense training, also alive training can be done avoiding too much fatigue accumulation: if a fight is short burst of action, perhaps the "rounds" or "simulations" can also be shortened to 10-20 sec. If your goal is not to attend a combat sports tournament but to prepare for a self defense situation, going hard for five minutes should perhaps not be the core component in your training. Personally, I think longer sparring rounds and rolls are essential in learning how to apply the techniques and having good stamina certainly never hurts.
 
Kalle Videnoja said:
Recently, I've been attending an instructors program for M.A. (under the national Olympic Committee). It was clearly highlighted that all speedwork (such as focus pads) and power exercises (e.g. throwing dummies) should be done fresh. I would suggest avoiding much padwork and heavy bag in fatigued state and using the Q&D format when training with equipment.
Click to expand...

Thank you, Kalle!
That's very useful information.

ATP is depleted in sparring and rolling, although in self defense training, also alive training can be done avoiding too much fatigue accumulation: if a fight is short burst of action, perhaps the "rounds" or "simulations" can also be shortened to 10-20 sec.
Click to expand...

That's what we do in live training, yes!

If your goal is not to attend a combat sports tournament but to prepare for a self defense situation, going hard for five minutes should perhaps not be the core component in your training.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm thinking, too. And that's also the reason why I was wondering if the current mode of training was the right way to go.

Personally, I think longer sparring rounds and rolls are essential in learning how to apply the techniques and having good stamina certainly never hurts.
Click to expand...

Do you think it's reasonable to include ATP depletion training every now and then? Just not two or three times a week?

Thank y'all for your replies.

Norbert
 
Reality based self protection is not my area... But all my instincts scream at me that this ATP depletion training should not be normal everyday work. More like once every 2 weeks or once a month. This is my unqualified opinion, Lol.

Eric
 
The two approaches will serve different needs, IMHO. Sparring, rolling and contact drilling while being severely fatigued, clearly has it's place in RBSD. But doing it too often will have a negative impact on the physical and technical quality of the training.

Technical powerstriking with a medium volume and semi-recovering rest intervals is also clearly valuable, for mitochondrial endurance, power output and technique. But it does not push people to the deep end mentally or physically, which is sometimes needed in your domain.
 
As many of you know, typical street encounters last less than one minute. The other thing to consider is that form & technique will degrade significantly due to stress. If "real-life" self defense is what you're striving for, I'd be putting most emphasis in practicing full power technique in an "unfatigued" state to build the muscle memory to avoid excess breakdown during the adrenaline rush. That would include breathing control to stay calmer, and to use breath power in technique.

The other thing that may be useful is sprints, since good sprinters don't have to stick around and fight.

JMO
 
from my old RBSD days... we had a kickboxing daily class (required for the RBSD students) and a separate RBSD class. The kickboxing class was always focused on fresh performance. Not Q&D, but the same ballpark. The idea for the kb class was that we need to increase skill level. Even the sparring was 'playful' most of the time.

but in the RBSD class, over training was used. The main reason was to make sure your technical work was crap. And the more the teachers wanted to focus on gross motor, the harder the burn was before hand. The more burned out you were from the training, the easier it was for them to push the limits of your emotional, de-escalation and awareness skills...

And so we seesawed back and forth from very technical to chaos and back...
 
I spent a good number of years on RBSD (JKD, Krav Maga, etc.) and have now trained in BJJ for 3 years exclusively.

My general approach is to "practice fresh often, but spar tired occasionally". Every so often (1x/wk?) you have to know what it feels like to perform against a live, resisting opponent while exhausted - without losing your ability to stay calm and do work. No need to overthink it and add a bunch of conditioning sets though, as if you're doing enough live training, you can't avoid getting tired eventually. Example in BJJ: instead of doing 3 six-minute light rounds after drilling, I do 9 moderate to hard rounds.

Otherwise, I separate my S&C and BJJ practice entirely. The carryover of increased strength, power, and overall conditioning on the mats is significant and I don't want to compromise on either BJJ skill development or S&C.
 
Mike Torres said:
Example in BJJ: instead of doing 3 six-minute light rounds after drilling, I do 9 moderate to hard rounds.

Otherwise, I separate my S&C and BJJ practice entirely. The carryover of increased strength, power, and overall conditioning on the mats is significant and I don't want to compromise on either BJJ skill development or S&C.
Click to expand...

My current judo practice most of the time I do 2 minutes at 65-75%, But once a month I'll do 4 min at 80-90% but a lot less rounds. The lower intensity allows me to play and develop some solid skill.
 
This is a really interesting thread.

I practice karate (or at least, I did when I had more time and the gym was actually open), and I will say I enjoy it a lot more when practiced with more of a "one punch one kill" philosophy. Perfect technique, rep after rep, practice after practice, week after week. And that requires rest - technique degrades with fatigue, it's just a question of how much. So I definitely enjoy the practice more in A+A/Q+D style, and that seems more "real world" to me - if you're in a fight, the goal should be to end it quickly.

I personally get frustrated when we get into pre-fatigue stuff. I get that with modern martial arts, we're not really training to kill per se - in many cases we tend to be training for tournament fighting, which absolutely involves preserving technique as much as possible under fatigue (if you're good enough to advance).

Anyways, @Norbert , I'll just say that I'm very encouraged to see a teacher saying "maybe I'm doing the wrong thing, what do you think?" - it shows a level of humility that I think is important for a teacher / coach.
 
@WhatWouldHulkDo , thank you, sir! In our school, we're simply trying to give our people the best material available. And I believe we're all in this together, we're all students for life (and of life :) ).

So what I'm taking with me from this discussion is:
  • use the Q&D protocol for heavy-bag work
  • use playfulness in training (like Systema does, for instance) maybe 70 percent of the time, but go full-force about 30 percent of the time
  • I'll re-introduce sprinting training and crawling
I think that might cover our bases best.
What do y'all say?
 
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Hello,

@Norbert
This looks good and quite realistic !

If your system involves throwings / takedowns, I'd maybe add a strength component. If weights are an option, then I'd go for get ups (with a bell or a sandbag) or C&P. If they are not, then a progression towards pistols and OA push ups.

Relaxation is key, but you already get it by the playfulness thing. We focus lot on breathing (which gives a lot more endurance, speed and power, and also increases efficiency)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
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