Kettlebell Q&D: Does it make sense to apply the principles to reality-based self-protection training?

[Norbert]

@pet' ,
thank you, this helps a lot!

 

[Deleted member 5559]

So maybe this isn't answering the question of Q&D being an applicable way to train self defense skills but my perspective is this:

Street fights aren't a weight class sport. The bigger stronger person is usually going to win. I have not rolled with any skill level female (usually 50-60% of my bodyweight) that my strength doesn't usually override their skill. Males are a little different because their strength per pound is better so even a small male can do well with decent skill mostly due to efficiency and allowing fatigue to set in on their opponent.

Long story short, hip escapes, arm bars, and deadlifting and getting as strong as possible is what I would train more for getting in a street fight.

 

[Mike Torres]

So maybe this isn't answering the question of Q&D being an applicable way to train self defense skills but my perspective is this:

Street fights aren't a weight class sport. The bigger stronger person is usually going to win. I have not rolled with any skill level female (usually 50-60% of my bodyweight) that my strength doesn't usually override their skill. Males are a little different because their strength per pound is better so even a small male can do well with decent skill mostly due to efficiency and allowing fatigue to set in on their opponent.

Long story short, hip escapes, arm bars, and deadlifting and getting as strong as possible is what I would train more for getting in a street fight.

Definitely off topic, but I prefer chokes to arm bars when the stakes are high. If the stakes aren’t high, joint locks or just positional control is fine. But I’ve seen people fight with broken arms, power out of arm bars, and even continue fighting after a “verbal tap”. No matter how tough someone is, they will go to sleep in 4-8 seconds with a choke.

Also off topic, but this is worth reading up on for anyone interested in self-defense. This guy fought Jon Jones for the UFC light heavyweight belt and had a hard time with a home intruder. One punch knockouts are the exception, not the rule.

UFC's Smith fights home intruder; man charged

Luke Haberman was arrested and charged with first-degree criminal trespass after he entered the Nebraska home of UFC fighter Anthony Smith unlawfully early Sunday morning, according to police.

www.espn.com

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I prefer chokes to arm bars when the stakes are high.

Amen

 

[Pantrolyx]

Definitely off topic, but I prefer chokes to arm bars when the stakes are high. If the stakes aren’t high, joint locks or just positional control is fine. But I’ve seen people fight with broken arms, power out of arm bars, and even continue fighting after a “verbal tap”. No matter how tough someone is, they will go to sleep in 4-8 seconds with a choke.

Also off topic, but this is worth reading up on for anyone interested in self-defense. This guy fought Jon Jones for the UFC light heavyweight belt and had a hard time with a home intruder. One punch knockouts are the exception, not the rule.

UFC's Smith fights home intruder; man charged

Luke Haberman was arrested and charged with first-degree criminal trespass after he entered the Nebraska home of UFC fighter Anthony Smith unlawfully early Sunday morning, according to police.

www.espn.com

That incident is highly interesting.

Smith is a great MMA figher who has proven to be one of the best LHW one the planet, and he trains frequently with world class fighters both standing and on the ground. Yet, the qualitative differences between what is still a sport, and being attacked in your own home, not knowing whether the attacker is armed or if one may be dealing with multiple opponents, is huge.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Definitely off topic, but I prefer chokes to arm bars when the stakes are high. If the stakes aren’t high, joint locks or just positional control is fine. But I’ve seen people fight with broken arms, power out of arm bars, and even continue fighting after a “verbal tap”. No matter how tough someone is, they will go to sleep in 4-8 seconds with a choke.

Also off topic, but this is worth reading up on for anyone interested in self-defense. This guy fought Jon Jones for the UFC light heavyweight belt and had a hard time with a home intruder. One punch knockouts are the exception, not the rule.

UFC's Smith fights home intruder; man charged

Luke Haberman was arrested and charged with first-degree criminal trespass after he entered the Nebraska home of UFC fighter Anthony Smith unlawfully early Sunday morning, according to police.

www.espn.com

Definitely way off topic, but I have to respond to get my daily testosterone boost.

Combat sport training will definitely give somebody a huge advantage over most of the population as far as defending yourself. But you have to remember the techniques in those sports teach ways to score points or attain victory within the context of the sport and its rules.

The essence of true self defense is to absolutely disable, or to temporarily disable or distract opponent to enable escape from the situation.

For instance, boxing-type punches don't always translate to effective self defense weapons, especially when the boxer is not trained at striking specific vulnerable targets, or making a correct fist for striking without a glove. Broken hands/fingers can result along not getting the job done.

Conversely, a karate-type punch is not effective in generating enough knock-down power while wearing gloves in a ring. And, many of the vulnerable targets taught in karate would be illegal and too dangerous in a sporting context.

All that said, a really effective karate punch may take years to learn correctly.

I used to assist with a self-defense course taught to women. Most of the striking techniques taught were simple, but dangerously effective, such as eye gouges, groin kicks, other soft vital spots. No punching, typically open hand strikes, maybe a hammer fist to the clavicle, etc. There was also a lot covered on escaping from holds and pins. The most important thing taught was having situational awareness, and avoiding most encounters if possible.

To tie back into the original post, I believe the essential part of personal self defense is mental preparation and simple, easily executed techniques that will disable the opponent to allow yourself to escape or render yourself safe. Strength and conditioning are great enhancements, but not necessarily essential.

JMO

 

[Mike Torres]

Definitely way off topic, but I have to respond to get my daily testosterone boost.

Combat sport training will definitely give somebody a huge advantage over most of the population as far as defending yourself. But you have to remember the techniques in those sports teach ways to score points or attain victory within the context of the sport and its rules.

The essence of true self defense is to absolutely disable, or to temporarily disable or distract opponent to enable escape from the situation.

For instance, boxing-type punches don't always translate to effective self defense weapons, especially when the boxer is not trained at striking specific vulnerable targets, or making a correct fist for striking without a glove. Broken hands/fingers can result along not getting the job done.

Conversely, a karate-type punch is not effective in generating enough knock-down power while wearing gloves in a ring. And, many of the vulnerable targets taught in karate would be illegal and too dangerous in a sporting context.

All that said, a really effective karate punch may take years to learn correctly.

I used to assist with a self-defense course taught to women. Most of the striking techniques taught were simple, but dangerously effective, such as eye gouges, groin kicks, other soft vital spots. No punching, typically open hand strikes, maybe a hammer fist to the clavicle, etc. There was also a lot covered on escaping from holds and pins. The most important thing taught was having situational awareness, and avoiding most encounters if possible.

To tie back into the original post, I believe the essential part of personal self defense is mental preparation and simple, easily executed techniques that will disable the opponent to allow yourself to escape or render yourself safe. Strength and conditioning are great enhancements, but not necessarily essential.

JMO

Just like everything, it depends.

If your goal is to be resilient to most attacks, not training primarily in the fundamentals of combat sports (boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ) will significantly limit your effectiveness. If you can't hit a moving person squarely in the face with a 16oz glove on, there's no way you will be able to poke them in the eyes with enough accuracy and force to end the fight under significant stress. Or stop them cold with a perfect groin kick or attack "soft vital parts". For many people, just training "self defense" or combatives lulls them into a false sense of confidence.

In this particular situation, I think most would agree that if Anthony Smith couldn't stop this guy with a barrage of attacks, a palm strike or groin kick from a 120lb female likely would have ended disastrously.

I'd always choose to adapt core MMA fundamentals to the street than just "train" street. Someone with a year of high school wrestling experience and a little boxing or BJJ would be a significant threat to someone who trained only combatives all day.

So while I agree that training for self-defense can be different from training for sport, I'd argue the gap is much smaller than people think. Most of the time, it's less about the actual techniques than it is about the training methods - which are what enables you to pull off those techniques against a live, resisting opponent.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Just like everything, it depends.

If your goal is to be resilient to most attacks, not training primarily in the fundamentals of combat sports (boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ) will significantly limit your effectiveness. If you can't hit a moving person squarely in the face with a 16oz glove on, there's no way you will be able to poke them in the eyes with enough accuracy and force to end the fight under significant stress. Or stop them cold with a perfect groin kick or attack "soft vital parts". For many people, just training "self defense" or combatives lulls them into a false sense of confidence.

In this particular situation, I think most would agree that if Anthony Smith couldn't stop this guy with a barrage of attacks, a palm strike or groin kick from a 120lb female likely would have ended disastrously.

I agree with what your saying Mike. I guess my point is a big part of self defense is knowing when you can't handle your business. In your example, I would hope that the 120lb female would never try to engage that intruder and just get her family and herself out of the house. If she was cornered, then that eye jab or groin kick maybe the only chance to distract the intruder long enough to escape.

I'm an advocate for people to participate in martial arts & combat sports, as there is much carryover into other things in life. But to do it properly takes some long term investment on your time. Most people aren't willing to do this or don't see the value.

 

[Pantrolyx]

Just like everything, it depends.

If your goal is to be resilient to most attacks, not training primarily in the fundamentals of combat sports (boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ) will significantly limit your effectiveness. If you can't hit a moving person squarely in the face with a 16oz glove on, there's no way you will be able to poke them in the eyes with enough accuracy and force to end the fight under significant stress. Or stop them cold with a perfect groin kick or attack "soft vital parts". For many people, just training "self defense" or combatives lulls them into a false sense of confidence.

In this particular situation, I think most would agree that if Anthony Smith couldn't stop this guy with a barrage of attacks, a palm strike or groin kick from a 120lb female likely would have ended disastrously.

I'd always choose to adapt core MMA fundamentals to the street than just "train" street. Someone with a year of high school wrestling experience and a little boxing or BJJ would be a significant threat to someone who trained only combatives all day.

So while I agree that training for self-defense can be different from training for sport, I'd argue the gap is much smaller than people think. Most of the time, it's less about the actual techniques than it is about the training methods - which are what enables you to pull off those techniques against a live, resisting opponent.

I believe that the gap can be huge, especially in a psychological sense.
Now, if Anthony Smith had encountered the same guy in his domain - the cage - I don't believe for a second that the fight would have lasted nearly as long. Drugs maye have played a role here, but so did the mentioned psychological factors, I believe. Being experienced in full contact at the highest level, does not mean that you are prepared to keep an equally sharp focus during an home invasion with many unknown variables.

And, while stepping inside the ring or the cage requires a lot of mental toughness, it is not still a controlled enviroment. Of course, I agree that being skilled in grappling and striking is the best technical starting point. But I have seen skilled grapplers being thrown out of their element on nightclub floors, dealing with multiple opponents and strikes thrown with bottles. Yes, this will be extremeley difficult to handle for anyone, but preparing for it in training is clearly an advantage that is not relevant if training purely for competition. My kicks are rather effective in combat sports, but encounters in previous jobs have typically occured at close distances when I have not been able to kick.

This story may very well be excaggerated, but it does show an important point. A rather small Nepalese guy killed three robbers and injured a handful more, taking them on with a knife. Factors that I believe came in to play:

- As a retired gurkha, he has most likely experienced real war scenarios and crosses the psychological/moral barriers of taking a life
- Using the kukri knife is all natural to him, with his cultural background and military experience

This gives him tremendous assets in such an extreme situation. The retired soldier would probably not be a force to be reckoned with in MMA, but still a lot more dangerous man for criminals to encounter in a real life situation.

 

[Mike Torres]

I believe that the gap can be huge, especially in a psychological sense.
Now, if Anthony Smith had encountered the same guy in his domain - the cage - I don't believe for a second that the fight would have lasted nearly as long. Drugs maye have played a role here, but so did the mentioned psychological factors, I believe. Being experienced in full contact at the highest level, does not mean that you are prepared to keep an equally sharp focus during an home invasion with many unknown variables.

And, while stepping inside the ring or the cage requires a lot of mental toughness, it is not still a controlled enviroment. Of course, I agree that being skilled in grappling and striking is the best technical starting point. But I have seen skilled grapplers being thrown out of their element on nightclub floors, dealing with multiple opponents and strikes thrown with bottles. Yes, this will be extremeley difficult to handle for anyone, but preparing for it in training is clearly an advantage that is not relevant if training purely for competition. My kicks are rather effective in combat sports, but encounters in previous jobs have typically occured at close distances when I have not been able to kick.

This story may very well be excaggerated, but it does show an important point. A rather small Nepalese guy killed three robbers and injured a handful more, taking them on with a knife. Factors that I believe came in to play:

- As a retired gurkha, he has most likely experienced real war scenarios and crosses the psychological/moral barriers of taking a life
- Using the kukri knife is all natural to him, with his cultural background and military experience

This gives him tremendous assets in such an extreme situation. The retired soldier would probably not be a force to be reckoned with in MMA, but still a lot more dangerous man for criminals to encounter in a real life situation.

Yes, there are definitely more variables for sure - and nothing is guaranteed in real life regardless of training. There's certainly a mental shift that needs to happen in a life-or-death scenario - it's not the same as fighting in a ring in terms of the level of violence you may encounter.

I'd still argue that training the fundamentals of MMA (or old school BJJ with strikes) is the best place to start though, and then you can layer in additional scenario-based training on top of that. As Henry Akins says regarding BJJ, "if you aren't training jiu-jitsu with strikes, you aren't training jiu-jitsu... you're training submission grappling, which is a sport". So your training does need to include stand-up, clinch, ground, and weapons to be comprehensive if self-defense is the goal. I'd also argue you need to train strength & conditioning too (per the original question) to stack the deck in your favor in sport or for self-defense.

Good video on this - I'm a big fan of Matt Thornton's work, and also appreciate the POV of Burton Richardson, Jocko Willink, Henry Akins, and Ryan Hoover of Fit to Fight on this topic.

 

[conor78]

I read somewhere that the intruder in that event had a wrestling pedigree which maybe explains why Smith had such difficulty with him. In saying that it sounded like a horrendous ordeal. There was attack in London last year where a guy who had been trained in K Maga had 4 intruders in his house. He survived but only just. Whether it was instinct or training it’s hard to say.

Martial artist fights off home invaders - BBC News

Martial arts trained David Pugh fought off the machete-wielding gang who stormed into his home.

www.bbc.co.uk

All things considered I have rarely met anyone who wants to test their mettle in that type of scenario with their families welfare at risk. Check out Geoff Thompson from the UK if you are genuinely interested in self defence. His videos and books are well known over here particularly the animal day videos. He has an extensive marital arts pedigree on grappling and striking backed up by working as a doorman in a rough part of Coventry in the 1980’s. If I was training in that field he’s the man I would go to. Geoff and a guy called Peter Consterdine have a lot of training books and DVDs that are fantastic resources.

 

[WhatWouldHulkDo]

Wow... this thread kind of went to a dark place!

There's a very interesting question here of how a regular civilian can ever really get the sense of what it feels like to face someone who honestly wants to hurt you. Tying it back to the original topic - maybe insanely glycolic training sessions are the closest most of us will ever come (hopefully).

 

[pet']

Hello,

As someone who has been mugged twice, being 'combat ready' requires being:
- aware of the environment
- physically prepared
- mentally prepared

Each one of these topics could have a dedicated thread actually.

Being aware of the environment implies always being in "yellow mode" (you carefully watch everything, avoid dangerous places (provided you can). That way you always have a few seconds more to react. This "mode" does not necessarily implies heavy mental stress or whatever. This is the contrary. If something happens, you are more relaxed because you got "time" to think about what to do.

Being physically prepared is being "combat ready". This is not being sore from the day before training, or the morning training. It implies proper recovery, being "operational" even right after the training. Most of time a fight is a short bout lasting no more than a few seconds. This is why, IMO, S&S or Q&D are kind of "go to" as far as physical preparation goes. Of course, raw strength is a must. Even if I practice boxing now, I am still an ex-judo guy. Having both "raw strength" and agility (flexibility / mobility) and speed / power remain crucial.

Indeed, under heavy stress, we rely on our basics or what we are conditioned to do (insane number of repetitions and drilling). For instance, my boxing style is ok with sweeps, so this is always I am looking for (both in boxing and in street...). This is why technique is important, at least up to a point (huge difference in weight, weapons or not, 1 vs 1 or 1 vs n, etc...)

Being mentally prepared is knowing that it gonna be tough, we may be [heavily] touched and it can hurt. Realistic training may help here, with heavy sparing for instance.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[cwheeler33]

Wow... this thread kind of went to a dark place!

There's a very interesting question here of how a regular civilian can ever really get the sense of what it feels like to face someone who honestly wants to hurt you. Tying it back to the original topic - maybe insanely glycolic training sessions are the closest most of us will ever come (hopefully).

Look up (in no order of preference) the training methods used/taught by:

• Lee Morrison
• Tony Blauer
• Richard Dimitry

I had trained for 4-5 years under one of them. Trust me, it's not for everyone. And the training can get real messy with no right or wrong answers. You really get to understand the phrases "it depends" and "a choiceless choice"

 

[North Coast Miller]

From a personal standpoint, and someone who is no tough guy or heavily seasoned sport fighter but has been involved in a few fights with multiple attackers - the most important tool anyone has in a real SD situation is the ability to recognize that this is really happening, right now. Hesitation eliminates opportunities.

Second to that is the ability to react according to your training. Whatever it is it can be effective, but only if you actually use it. Many sport combat arts are somewhat impractical on the street because they do not account for multiple attackers, or emphasize tying up with an individual as a means of control. These things will get you KO'd or stabbed in the real world. If they work, 99% of the time you are involved in a fight you could have walked away from.

From a strictly SD POV, one of the most important parts of training isn't conditioning, its taking hits, even if they are just whacks upside the head with a focus mitt, some shots to the ribs etc. And being expected to continue being aware and responding. Added to this is exhaustion type training, something that sends your HR into the stratosphere while you continue to perform. This isn't really important for conditioning sake but to deal with adrenaline dump and improve not your best performance, but your worst - your crappiest mechanical conditioning, alertness levels, ability to put your hands on an improvised weapon etc needs to still be marginally effective even after you've been hit in the back of the head and are fighting to keep your balance.

 

[Norbert]

Hey guys,

I'm thinking a quick update is in order

So I've been applying the Q&D principles to our technical workouts, and YES, they definitely work: We can stay cool, calm and collected a lot longer because we still have gas in the tank – and that gives us more tactical options and awareness. Very cool!

Also, and that's so beautiful, adding the regular Q&D workouts to our curriculum has proven to be a godsend. Just yesterday, we did a quick workout to start training (1 x explosive pushup, 10m sprint, bearcrawl the way back, repeat till 5 minutes are over), and we definitely did better than before.

So, thank y'all for the tips.

In my private training, I added heavy sandbag getups (varying between 30 kilos and 50 kilos), some sprinting and walking under weight. All good, all wholesome, and still adding more power to my 49-year old body

Thank you, guys.
Norbert

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Norbert

In my private training, I added heavy sandbag getups (varying between 30 kilos and 50 kilos), some sprinting and walking under weight. All good, all wholesome, and still adding more power to my 49-year old body

Tony Sentmanat who is a tactical guy has plenty of videos regarding his training (shooting and physical preparation).

Most of time, he performs circuits (sort of CrossFit-ish) while wearing a weight vest. This extra-challenge makes him extremely proficient when he puts it off.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[DaveS]

Interesting discussion on the link between StrongFirst/Q&D and combat sports & self defence.

Some thoughts come to mind whilst reading this thread.

Sports fights are uncertain and risky and real fights totally unpredictable and guaranteed to get you hurt to some degree and so why the soft skills of awareness, avoidance and escape are no.1 for self defence.

If forced to fight then being able to stay calm but focused despite the chaos seems the most important attribute to develop.

After that, any form of training against a resisting opponent (combat sports) is gonna help massively but still not guarantee anything. Being strong and conditioned is gonna help massively too but again not guarantee anything.

Combative's training working on targeting weak points of the body is useful to include within drilling but of course has to be simulated. Biting, gouging and pressure points can all be incorporated into sparring with resistance but only if training with people you trust and are skilled enough to control these moves enough though the drills are ‘real’ trying to actually strike and roll competitively.

If any of this training is so fatiguing that when you walk out of the gym your totally spent then you’re a sitting duck if attacked at that moment. Same if you have severe DOMS the next day and can’t move, your a walking target and why Pavel makes a great point in his works of the tactical community needing a totally different approach to strength training than the typical bodybuilding methods as having legs that are shot because it was ‘leg day yesterday’ is unacceptable as Pavel says.

Makes me think any training for self defence should be similar, slow adaptation to be able to do more and more in terms of work capacity but minimising the fatigue should be essential considerations for designing the sessions. Part of this would involve pressure testing technique and conditioning but it should be done where the aim is to remain as relaxed as possible whilst moving fast and continuously breathing the whole time with the drills scaled to suit the participants abilities so they are capable of keeping themselves in that state rather than be ‘beasted’ and just become good at flailing in a ball of tension trying to survive excessively hard drilling with the instructor thinking its preparing them for reality when actually it’s breaking them physically, teaching them poor technique and mentally making them want to quit the training. Like another Pavel quote in ETK ‘it doesn’t matter how hard your sessions are now if 6 weeks down the line you quit’ or something to similar effect. So progressively working up to the standard needed without overreaching recovery abilities would be key, just like building up to the 100 rep snatches in 5 minutes test, you don’t get there by beasting yourself every session, you work within your abilities and slowly build up testing yourself occasionally when feeling good followed by a back off period to recover. Many similarities between StrongFirst methods that carry over to combat sports and self defence.

Most of the need for conditioning for self defence is mental rather than physical, there are loads of people who can fight well even though not in shape but its skill, mental toughness and the resultant not panicking that enables them to finish the fight quick or stay relaxed enough to not gas immediately because of fear. So mental conditioning through short intense drills followed by rest and analysis would work better to build this than just ‘hell for leather’ for so long the skills are engrained all wrong. A Q&D or A&A type work/rest ratio could work really well for this type of training approach and makes logical sense.

Supplemental strength and conditioning should support the development of the main training not hinder it and so many of StrongFirsts methods are perfectly set yp for this with S&S, A&A and for the experienced Q&D being perfect additions that increase work capacity and strength without interfering with the main sessions a s don’t leave you wiped out. If the main sessions are set up similar then you would still have enough in the tank to defend yourself the moment you walk out the gym or be mostly recovered the next day with minimal fatigue or soreness the next day.

Consistency beats intensity so having a long term plan such as the above with planned periods of pressure testing and then back off weeks but with the main work rationally well planned will trump any beasting mentality in the long run. The beasting style i think originates from the military where they have only minimal time to assess troops suitability for selection and then minimal time to train them to the standards needed for war. This time pressure and knowing that the average participant is fitter and tougher than Joe public make this possible but the majority of people interested in self defence are interested because they are not already tough and ready.

I could go on but thought id share these thoughts here as it helps me to record my own thought processes to review later and might be of help to others here in the group.

Dave.

 

[Norbert]

Sports fights are uncertain and risky and real fights totally unpredictable and guaranteed to get you hurt to some degree and so why the soft skills of awareness, avoidance and escape are no.1 for self defence.

Absolutely. In Senshido, we have tons of situational awareness drills, perception drills and drills to get the f*** out of a situation.

If forced to fight then being able to stay calm but focused despite the chaos seems the most important attribute to develop.

Yes, and it helps you to 'rage with reason': do whatever is necessary, but don't cross the line.

After that, any form of training against a resisting opponent (combat sports) is gonna help massively but still not guarantee anything. Being strong and conditioned is gonna help massively too but again not guarantee anything.

Absolutely. At the end of the day, being physically strong and conditioned is not as important as what we call 'hunter mindset' (not 'killer'. mind you, too many wannabe martial arts superheroes have ended up either being severely injured or killed, or have severely injured and/or killed threats where a softer solution would have been possible).

Combative's training working on targeting weak points of the body is useful to include within drilling but of course has to be simulated. Biting, gouging and pressure points can all be incorporated into sparring with resistance but only if training with people you trust and are skilled enough to control these moves enough though the drills are ‘real’ trying to actually strike and roll competitively.

Yes! Again, this is what our Senshido curriculum consists of, progressively harder partner drills (from no resistance to full, live and forward aggression). That, and only that makes sense for any reality-based training.

If any of this training is so fatiguing that when you walk out of the gym your totally spent then you’re a sitting duck if attacked at that moment. Same if you have severe DOMS the next day and can’t move, your a walking target and why Pavel makes a great point in his works of the tactical community needing a totally different approach to strength training than the typical bodybuilding methods as having legs that are shot because it was ‘leg day yesterday’ is unacceptable as Pavel says.

So much truth there! I could never really, really understand the 100-percent-on-all-the-time training of early reality-based training. I always thought, 'why should we bash each other's heads in, and then walk into a confrontation?'. Never made sense to me.

Makes me think any training for self defence should be similar, slow adaptation to be able to do more and more in terms of work capacity but minimising the fatigue should be essential considerations for designing the sessions. Part of this would involve pressure testing technique and conditioning but it should be done where the aim is to remain as relaxed as possible whilst moving fast and continuously breathing the whole time with the drills scaled to suit the participants abilities so they are capable of keeping themselves in that state rather than be ‘beasted’ and just become good at flailing in a ball of tension trying to survive excessively hard drilling with the instructor thinking its preparing them for reality when actually it’s breaking them physically, teaching them poor technique and mentally making them want to quit the training.

I fully agree – almost. You have to have pressure tests, in full gear, from time to time. What you're writing reminds me of many German systema practitioners (NOT the US ones, NOT the Canadian ones, and definitely NOT Martin Wheeler's guys, Martin is good people, my former instructor and a friend of mine, and one of the best fighters I've ever seen). Many years ago, when I practiced systema, a couple of guys introduced pressure testing in a seminar, and the results were abysmal. None of the instructors stood a chance, the adrenalin dump messed with their fine-motor skills so badly, they could barely move.

That said, slow is fast when learning new stuff, and that's why in Senshido, we increase intensity step by step. It works pretty well.

Many similarities between StrongFirst methods that carry over to combat sports and self defence.

Yes!

Supplemental strength and conditioning should support the development of the main training not hinder it and so many of StrongFirsts methods are perfectly set yp for this with S&S, A&A and for the experienced Q&D being perfect additions that increase work capacity and strength without interfering with the main sessions a s don’t leave you wiped out. If the main sessions are set up similar then you would still have enough in the tank to defend yourself the moment you walk out the gym or be mostly recovered the next day with minimal fatigue or soreness the next day.

That's the beauty of Q&D; I mean, even after rolling a 6 (5 full sets of swings/pus), I feel refreshed. Same for S&S.

I could go on but thought id share these thoughts here as it helps me to record my own thought processes to review later and might be of help to others here in the group.
Dave.

Dave, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Stuff to think about, and inspire growth. Thank you!

 

[offwidth]

Once, Tsukahara Bokuden was crossing Lake Biwa in a boat with a rough-looking samurai who was bragging of his martial prowess to all of the passengers who would listen. Bokuden sat as if dozing ignoring the man. The boastful young samurai noticing that Bokuden also carried two swords and asked what style he studied. Bokuden answered quietly, “My art is called the Muto-ryu.”
The angry samurai challenged the master. “Do you really mean to fight me with no swords?” “Why not?” Bokuden answered.
They agreed to go to an island where no bystanders could get hurt. As they landed on the island, the braggart jumped off the boat, drew his sword and was ready for combat. Suddenly Bokuden took the oar and, pushed off, leaving the angry samurai stranded. Bokuden, smiling as he rowed into deeper water, remarked, “This is my ‘no-sword’ school.”