Kettlebell Q&D rest in S&S?

[forkmantis]

Hello, all. I have been doing Simple and Sinister since early April, and have completed just over 100 sessions so far, usually getting in about 5 per week. I'm currently doing 2 sets @ 16KG and 8 sets @ 24KG. I also just read the Quick and the Dead over the weekend.

During my sessions so far, I have been doing the talk test, and usually end up doing about 1 set every 2 to 2 and a half minutes. Based on what I've read in Q&D, about hitting the sweet spot of CP and pH recovery, I am thinking of just forgetting about the talk test and doing my swings every 3 minutes. Aside from taking extra time per session, is there any reason not to do this?

 

[IMayAgainKnowChris]

Hello, all. I have been doing Simple and Sinister since early April, and have completed just over 100 sessions so far, usually getting in about 5 per week. I'm currently doing 2 sets @ 16KG and 8 sets @ 24KG. I also just read the Quick and the Dead over the weekend.

During my sessions so far, I have been doing the talk test, and usually end up doing about 1 set every 2 to 2 and a half minutes. Based on what I've read in Q&D, about hitting the sweet spot of CP and pH recovery, I am thinking of just forgetting about the talk test and doing my swings every 3 minutes. Aside from taking extra time per session, is there any reason not to do this?

If anything you’ll be fresher and better over all. When I first started my rests were LONG. About 3 min like you’re saying. I noticed a BIG difference when I took a good while to rest and when I’d try to push EMOM. big difference...

 

[forkmantis]

If anything you’ll be fresher and better over all. When I first started my rests were LONG. About 3 min like you’re saying. I noticed a BIG difference when I took a good while to rest and when I’d try to push EMOM. big difference...

Thanks, @IMayAgainKnowChris. I did a lot of metcon type stuff before COVID, so I think my natural bias is to try to reduce rest time because it's "better".

After reading Q&D and getting a better understanding of anti-glycolitic training, the benefit I'm hoping to get from the longer rest is to hit the sweet spot of pH so that I can put as much power into each set as is practical to do. If I can get that for only 10 more minutes per session, I think I'll be happy to make that trade.

 

[Oscar]

During my sessions so far, I have been doing the talk test, and usually end up doing about 1 set every 2 to 2 and a half minutes. Based on what I've read in Q&D, about hitting the sweet spot of CP and pH recovery, I am thinking of just forgetting about the talk test and doing my swings every 3 minutes. Aside from taking extra time per session, is there any reason not to do this?

Nothing wrong with starting the sets on the 3 minutes, in particular if the weight is challenging. However, what you have been doing, sets on the 2:00 - 2:30, is more in line with the usual S&S practice.

At your current stage, I would suggest you to stick with what you have been doing. All the science behind Q&D applies to a more advanced practitioner swinging heavier weights than 16 kg, or even 24 kg. You can leave the longer rests for when you are swinging 32 kg and above. You will save yourself a lot of time, and shorter sets might be more effective for training for the timed test as well. Keep in mind that many people do the sets on the 1:00 until they reach timed Simple.

If what you like is the practical aspect of setting a timer instead of using the talk test, you can just set the timer to 1:30, 1:00 or 2:00, and do your ten set of swings. 1:30 is a nice ryhtym for a normal weight, and you can use 2:00 for a challenging weight.

By the way, 5 sessions per week for 6 months is very good consistency, well done! I how well I felt when I began doing S&S with the 24, awesome feeling.

 

[offwidth]

Another option is to use a HRM

 

[Steve W.]

I don't do S&S per se, but I often do sessions of 10 x 10 on the 3:00 with everything from swings to snatches to pushups.

It's a nice relaxed pace that makes for an enjoyable session and allows me to do each set strongly.

 

[forkmantis]

At your current stage, I would suggest you to stick with what you have been doing. All the science behind Q&D applies to a more advanced practitioner swinging heavier weights than 16 kg, or even 24 kg. You can leave the longer rests for when you are swinging 32 kg and above. You will save yourself a lot of time, and shorter sets might be more effective for training for the timed test as well. Keep in mind that many people do the sets on the 1:00 until they reach timed Simple.

If what you like is the practical aspect of setting a timer instead of using the talk test, you can just set the timer to 1:30, 1:00 or 2:00, and do your ten set of swings. 1:30 is a nice ryhtym for a normal weight, and you can use 2:00 for a challenging weight.

I am comfortable w/ variable times. Primarily I'm focused on achieving the simple standard for now, but after reading Q&D, I thought I might be able to maximize my mitochondria production w/ the 3 minute rest. Not knowing anyone else doing S&S, I was wondering if I was being too liberal in my interpretation of the talk test, and that maybe most people were taking around 3 minutes anyway. But maybe I am too early in my journey to really benefit from that, so I should just keep my original focus on achieving the Simple Standard.

As an aside. I have my 32KG bell already, and I look at it every time I practice. I cannot wait until the day I earn the right to start using it in my practice sessions. If things go smoothly, that should be in about 7 weeks.

Another option is to use a HRM

I do glance at my HR on my fitness watch, as I walk between sets and do the talk test. I know fitness watches are not the most accurate, but I look anyway. What HR would you be looking for in order to say you're ready for the next set?

 

[IMayAgainKnowChris]

Thanks, @IMayAgainKnowChris. I did a lot of metcon type stuff before COVID, so I think my natural bias is to try to reduce rest time because it's "better".

After reading Q&D and getting a better understanding of anti-glycolitic training, the benefit I'm hoping to get from the longer rest is to hit the sweet spot of pH so that I can put as much power into each set as is practical to do. If I can get that for only 10 more minutes per session, I think I'll be happy to make that trade.

I feel ya. Recovering crossfitter over here. A lot of this stuff was new to me. Good form especially

 

[Roland Roppelt]

I guess there is nothing wrong with a timed 3min rest. At the moment i do Q&D and i sometimes miss Simple&Sinister because the absence of a beeping electronic device makes the sessions very enjoyable. I dig the concept of a talk test for beginners and after a few months just listening to your body.

 

[offwidth]

I am comfortable w/ variable times. Primarily I'm focused on achieving the simple standard for now, but after reading Q&D, I thought I might be able to maximize my mitochondria production w/ the 3 minute rest. Not knowing anyone else doing S&S, I was wondering if I was being too liberal in my interpretation of the talk test, and that maybe most people were taking around 3 minutes anyway. But maybe I am too early in my journey to really benefit from that, so I should just keep my original focus on achieving the Simple Standard.

As an aside. I have my 32KG bell already, and I look at it every time I practice. I cannot wait until the day I earn the right to start using it in my practice sessions. If things go smoothly, that should be in about 7 weeks.



I do glance at my HR on my fitness watch, as I walk between sets and do the talk test. I know fitness watches are not the most accurate, but I look anyway. What HR would you be looking for in order to say you're ready for the next set?

I don’t always use my HRM for S&S swings, but when I do I don’t ever go above my AeT for the actual swing portion, so it’s not that big of a deal for me. But... that being said my HR usually will drop 20bpm between sets. I’ve never actually time it, but I suppose it takes between 1 and 2 minutes between sets. I too, walk between sets. Bear in mind I consider L arm / R arm one set. (I only take a few seconds between L/R)

It’s hard to say what your HR should be, not knowing where you are at currently from an aerobic fitness perspective.

 

[forkmantis]

@offwidth Last time I calculated, back when I was running a lot, my AeT was in the 140s. When I do my 10x10 swings, I maybe peak around 110 on my early sets, and maybe to the mid 130s by the last set. I can usually get below 100. By my standard, I feel like I can pass the talk test when my HR is even as high as 105 or so, but I usually like to get it down into the 90s before going on to my next set.

 

[Deleted member 316]

I try and vary my rest. Some days it's emom. Some days it's a minute. Others it's 1:30. I found the variety kept it a little less boring

 

[offwidth]

@offwidth Last time I calculated, back when I was running a lot, my AeT was in the 140s. When I do my 10x10 swings, I maybe peak around 110 on my early sets, and maybe to the mid 130s by the last set. I can usually get below 100. By my standard, I feel like I can pass the talk test when my HR is even as high as 105 or so, but I usually like to get it down into the 90s before going on to my next set.

Sounds like you have it covered then. I think it just becomes about how much time one wants to spend training. I don’t see any significant benefits of ‘resting too much‘ between sets.

 

[Bauer]

Hello, all. I have been doing Simple and Sinister since early April, and have completed just over 100 sessions so far, usually getting in about 5 per week. I'm currently doing 2 sets @ 16KG and 8 sets @ 24KG. I also just read the Quick and the Dead over the weekend.

During my sessions so far, I have been doing the talk test, and usually end up doing about 1 set every 2 to 2 and a half minutes. Based on what I've read in Q&D, about hitting the sweet spot of CP and pH recovery, I am thinking of just forgetting about the talk test and doing my swings every 3 minutes. Aside from taking extra time per session, is there any reason not to do this?

Pavel explicitly states in Q&D that " S&S is a different program, built according to different specs. It cannot guide the Q&D rests, or vice versa."

I think the main points to look out for are "Do not hold back" and "Don't let your reps slow down."

Longer rest will favor power adaptations and shorter rests endurance adaptations (energy systems).

 

[forkmantis]

Pavel explicitly states in Q&D that " S&S is a different program, built according to different specs. It cannot guide the Q&D rests, or vice versa."

I'm sure I read that, but I must have forgotten all about it in the excitement of reading about CP depletion and growing mitochondria

I think the main points to look out for are "Do not hold back" and "Don't let your reps slow down."

Longer rest will favor power adaptations and shorter rests endurance adaptations (energy systems).

Fair enough. I definitely have a bias towards more power currently.

For the past 3 weeks I have done a timed simple w/ the 16kg bell, but I was also reminded reading through these forums that even that was recommended for after achieving timeless simple @ 32kg, so I'll probably stop doing that, and just do shorter rests once a week instead, and longer rests most of the time.

I think I need to reread S&S now. Reading Q&D probably confused me between the two programs.

 

[seward]

I think I need to reread S&S now. Reading Q&D probably confused me between the two programs.

Do you have the second edition of S&S? If not, it's worth the upgrade.

 

[forkmantis]

Do you have the second edition of S&S? If not, it's worth the upgrade.

Yes, I do have the 2nd edition.

 

[seward]

Yes, I do have the 2nd edition.

Nice. Definitely worth rereading. I think it should go a long way to clearing up the distinction between S&S / Q&D. At least, it did for me -- I'm in much the same boat, working my way towards timeless simple right now, looking forward to doing Q&D sometime next year.

 

[Steve Freides]

Hello, all. I have been doing Simple and Sinister since early April, and have completed just over 100 sessions so far, usually getting in about 5 per week. I'm currently doing 2 sets @ 16KG and 8 sets @ 24KG. I also just read the Quick and the Dead over the weekend.

During my sessions so far, I have been doing the talk test, and usually end up doing about 1 set every 2 to 2 and a half minutes. Based on what I've read in Q&D, about hitting the sweet spot of CP and pH recovery, I am thinking of just forgetting about the talk test and doing my swings every 3 minutes. Aside from taking extra time per session, is there any reason not to do this?

If I haven't said so already, welcome aboard, @forkmantis.

FWIW - and I'm interested to hear if others agree with me on this point - in terms of effort and explosiveness on a scale of 1 to 10, Q&D means 10 while S&S means 7 or 8. That's a profound difference in what you're doing, so things like rest periods will necessarily be different.

I had occasion to experience this first-hand just yesterday - I had a planned S&S type session, sets of 10 swings. But I did them at level 10, not 7 or 8, and I was gassed after 4 sets and had to stop.

-S-

 

[forkmantis]

If I haven't said so already, welcome aboard, @forkmantis.

Thanks!

FWIW - and I'm interested to hear if others agree with me on this point - in terms of effort and explosiveness on a scale of 1 to 10, Q&D means 10 while S&S means 7 or 8. That's a profound difference in what you're doing, so things like rest periods will necessarily be different.

Interesting. When I practice Timeless simple I have been shooting for 10/10 explosiveness. I thought that was the point, even before reading Q&D. I started re-reading S&S yesterday, so I'll pay close attention to that. The few times I've done timed, I've intentionally dialed the explosiveness back to ~8/10 just so I could make it from set to set, and it's still rough.