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Kettlebell Q&D rest in S&S?

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Thanks!



Interesting. When I practice Timeless simple I have been shooting for 10/10 explosiveness. I thought that was the point, even before reading Q&D. I started re-reading S&S yesterday, so I'll pay close attention to that. The few times I've done timed, I've intentionally dialed the explosiveness back to ~8/10 just so I could make it from set to set, and it's still rough.
Different systems at work, 5 minutes vs 16 seconds.
 
I'm not familiar with Q&D. So pardon me if I'm off base here. By reading your post though I would assume you are trying to stay out of glycolysis for quicker recovery and less harm to the mitochondria.

The problem with trying to do S&S by the book in an A+A fashion is simply that 10 reps do not work well trying to stay out of glycolysis. Another would be that the Turkish Get-up is not a good exercise for staying out glycolysis either.

Basically I would have to say that it depends on your objective.

I'm currently doing S&S and basically I try to begin my next set when I feel ready as I did doing A+A. I've worn a HR monitor and it shows that into the later sets I'm going over MAF but I don't think that is of big concern.

My goal is to simply do S&S at a comfortable pace. When I reach a point where I'm doing swings in this manner under 6 min. and get-ups under 11 (give or take) I know I could go all out and meet the time limits without testing. I can also use the same KB for 5 or 6 sessions per week without feeling beat up. I could test but I really have no goal of doing X weight kettlebell for X reps in X amount of time.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with those who want to meet these benchmarks. If I had a day where I'm constantly hitting the above and feel strong I could test just for fun. The big problem with S&S when it first came out was that many, myself included were trying to meet the time goals each session.

Simply if you were to error, I would error on the side of more time between sets.
 
Basically I would have to say that it depends on your objective.

My big objective at this point is to achieve Timeless Simple.

My understanding of both S&S and Q&D has evolved since the beginning of this thread. When I read Q&D, I perceived it almost as an S&S variant w/ maybe a better understanding of anti-glycolytic training, and more emphasis on that by replacing the TGUs w/ powerful pushups. I almost saw it as an S&S 3.0. Seeing them as very close to the same, I thought I could adopt just a change in the 3 minute rest period to take advantage of some of it while still focusing on my objective of achieving Timeless Simple.

As of now, I recognize that Q&D is more different from S&S than I had thought, both in objectives and methods. W/ that understanding in mind, I am going to double down on S&S until I achieve Timeless Simple. As I re-read S&S within days of reading Q&D, I'll make note of the differences to ensure that I do not get the two confused.

I really appreciate all of the help and guidance I've been offered so far. Thanks, everyone!
 
If I haven't said so already, welcome aboard, @forkmantis.

FWIW - and I'm interested to hear if others agree with me on this point - in terms of effort and explosiveness on a scale of 1 to 10, Q&D means 10 while S&S means 7 or 8. That's a profound difference in what you're doing, so things like rest periods will necessarily be different.

I had occasion to experience this first-hand just yesterday - I had a planned S&S type session, sets of 10 swings. But I did them at level 10, not 7 or 8, and I was gassed after 4 sets and had to stop.

-S-
I have been wondering about that, too.

However, Pavel frames it differently in S&S 2.0:
Pavel in the chapter "The Secret of Hardstyle Laziness" said:
In summary, when practicing for the five-minute swing test or some other feat of repeated high power, ease up on the throttle to approximately 80%. The power will drop a hair—noticeable mostly to you and hardly to others. If you ever get into nonstop swing death marches with a lighter-size kettlebell à la Brandon Hetzler, the effort is around 50%.

Never sandbag on your standard S&S training days with the talk test: Give no less than 90%. Easing up even slightly significantly reduces the intensity of the metabolic processes and the resulting adaptations.

This actually made me go down a bell again.
 
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My big objective at this point is to achieve Timeless Simple.

My understanding of both S&S and Q&D has evolved since the beginning of this thread. When I read Q&D, I perceived it almost as an S&S variant w/ maybe a better understanding of anti-glycolytic training, and more emphasis on that by replacing the TGUs w/ powerful pushups. I almost saw it as an S&S 3.0. Seeing them as very close to the same, I thought I could adopt just a change in the 3 minute rest period to take advantage of some of it while still focusing on my objective of achieving Timeless Simple.

As of now, I recognize that Q&D is more different from S&S than I had thought, both in objectives and methods. W/ that understanding in mind, I am going to double down on S&S until I achieve Timeless Simple. As I re-read S&S within days of reading Q&D, I'll make note of the differences to ensure that I do not get the two confused.

I really appreciate all of the help and guidance I've been offered so far. Thanks, everyone!
When Q&D came out I also wondered about that and summarized my findings in this thread (albeit before S&S 2.0 came out, claryfing things further):

Here is my favourite Pavel quote on differentiating S&S, Q&D and A+A with respect to mitochondrial outcomes:
Pavel said:
Q&D and A+A (e.g., in its simplest form, 5 high power swings or snatches OTM, or on the minute) are highly complementary. Q&D builds more and bigger mitochondria and A+A makes them function better. (The technical terms are “mitochondrial biogenesis” and “mitochondrial respiration,” respectively.)
Pavel said:
S&S was designed to stimulate both MT biogenesis and respiration. (Specialized regimens for either—Q&D and A+A—are more effective but less efficient.)

Source: Article and comments:
 
Both of those were great reading, @Bauer. It took me a little while to read it all, but I think I have a much clearer picture now of how S&S, Q&D and A+A fit into the big picture, and I'm way more content to stick to S&S by the book.
 
FWIW - and I'm interested to hear if others agree with me on this point - in terms of effort and explosiveness on a scale of 1 to 10, Q&D means 10 while S&S means 7 or 8...

I agree 100%.


According to my understanding and direct experience, Q&D is all about going 10 out of 10 in order to trip the emergency energy system:

you have your Three Musketeer energy systems - alactic, glycolytic, aerobic (A+A targets the first and third respectively hence more effective, and S&S involves the second more thus more efficient);

we also have a fourth musketeer, d'Artagnan - the myokinase energy system - who rides in to rescue the other three when they get into deep trouble fast.


Q&D protocols are all about going pedal-to-metal in order to summon the myokinase system into action, by product of which is AMP - the trigger-switch for mitochondrial biogenesis.
 
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FWIW - and I'm interested to hear if others agree with me on this point - in terms of effort and explosiveness on a scale of 1 to 10, Q&D means 10 while S&S means 7 or 8. That's a profound difference in what you're doing, so things like rest periods will necessarily be different.

I agree 100%.

To be sure I'm understanding, are you referring to Timed Simple or Timeless Simple? I have been speaking in terms of Timeless when I said I shot for 10/10 effort. In re-reading S&S 2.0, on the Timeless Simple Summary (p. 86 in the printed version), Pavel says:

Do 10/10 one arm swings, the sum of both arms. Express maximal power in every rep; do not hold back. Do not confuse power with cadence. Use chalk.

I'm pretty sure that this, and maybe something else stated earlier in the book are what put it into my mind to put the most power I can into every rep and set.
 
Reading a little past the Timeless Simple Summary, in the chapter titled The Secrets of Hard Style Laziness, Pavel clarifies that trying to put too much power into a movement can make you tight, and reduce the efficiency of that movement. So I guess when I say I try for 10/10 power, I'm factoring in that I'm shooting for 10/10 result, even if that requires the finesse of only 90 or 95% input to achieve it.
 
Interesting discussions here so far...

One thing I would recommend as a form of specialized variety of your goal is working on timeless simple:

20-24 kg snatches doing 5 on the minute, work up to 20 minutes..

When I was snatching heavy for me on my variety day (28-32kg) I unlocked timeless Sinister swings.

So rather than worrying about rest intervals build a strength base, get some power work with snatches..

I'm quite confident in a month or two of doing this, you'll have timeless simple in the bag...

Once that is checked off the list, you can now revisit Q and D
 
Interesting discussions here so far...

One thing I would recommend as a form of specialized variety of your goal is working on timeless simple:

20-24 kg snatches doing 5 on the minute, work up to 20 minutes..

I will keep this in mind. My current problem... over the course of this thread, I've developed a fairly acute case of golfer and tennis elbow (yes, both). Based on this thread (Elbow tendonitis), I've cut reduced S&S to every other day with reduced sets and weight, introduced theraband bar work, and some finger extensions w/ rubber bands. As I see improvement, I'll ramp back up the sets and weight.

Once I get back on track, I'll experiment w/ the snatches.
 
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