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Old Forum Question about Bruce Lee

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dmaxashman

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I have seen there are a lot of martial arts fans on this board so I want to throw out a couple of questions I have about Bruce Lee.

Did Bruce Lee spar or have fights? How did he do?

Why is Bruce Lee a legend, whereas you have other people for instance Jackie Chan who is also a great martial artist and an actor, who is just famous?
 
Not being a martial artist myself, I would say Bruce is a legend due to his well documented and demonstrated abilities in the world of mind over body mastery. Overcoming what he did, and accomplishing feats of speed, strength, and precision not to be explained by the knowledge of the day put him in a league of his own. In hindsight and with an expanded awareness of a great many things, its easier now to look back and compare.
 
He was ahead of his time no doubt. I would recommend the book "The art of expressing the human body" its about his philosophies and ideas about strength training and martial arts. And yes he did fight in competitions and did very well, the book talks about this also its well worth the read.

 
 
Bruce Lee eh...never quite sure how I feel about the guy.  He was definitely something special.  But he wasn't exactly the man that his legacy suggests.  As always happens with American celebrities, there was a lot of PR work being done to keep his image polished.  His wife and students made sure that their association with him would continue to pay off after his death.  Many of the things he supposedly did (like the SF chinatown challenge) were highly controversial.  He was certainly an exceptional athlete and an innovator, but his innovations were not as successful as you might thing.  He suffered a severe back injury from his training.  He also died at age 32 as a combined result of overtraining, having his sweat glands surgically removed for aesthetic reasons (he didnt' want to look sweaty on camera) and a heavy hashish habit.  I feel this side of him often gets neglected.  He burned bright, for sure, but I think the man had some serious daemons.  I think its best to see him as an interesting person who had serious human struggles like any of us.  His struggles just manifested in an interesting way but what he did should by no means be taken as an example for others.    His skill was the product of an unsustainably out of control ego that ultimately killed him.  There is a story about a martial arts student asking his teacher "Sensei, who would win in a fight between you and Bruce Lee?"  and the teacher replies "Me of course, Bruce Lee's been dead for decades!"  Honestly, if he hadn't died so young I don't think aging would have been kind to him the way he was living.
 
And if you want to see the present-day result of his work, check out Tommy Carruthers from Scotland.  He was chosen to represent Lee for his "70th birthday" celebrations - he is generally considered to have advanced to a higher skill level than Lee, largely on account of the fact that he trained in a way that has allowed him to keep progressing through his 50's but also because he wasn't a showman like Lee but was a Glasgow door man all his life.
 
Sweat glands removed? Jeez...I did know of the hash habit though. My understanding is that he had an encephalitic reaction to it and was warned to never do it again--which he did and it killed him.

 

guy was amazing though...
 
With any famous Martial Artist only half of what you hear is probably true and who knows how true the other half is. Look up Mas Oyama,Bruce Lee,Ed Parker,Kano Jigoro or any other famous dead Martial Artist and there will be multiple theories and stories.

I try to look past those and see what they did in their life that made them a legend.

With Bruce he was able to get a starring role in an American made film in an era where racism was very rampant. He also distilled his Chinese MA training and mixed in western boxing,etc  to create a style that worked for him.
 
He's famous mainly for being a movie star. Much less, but still famous, for the "martial art" he created, at a time when everyone was still into the traditional styles, working their Katas and whatnot. His objective was efficiency; hence the name Jeet Kune Do (The Way of the Intercepting Fist). I've been taking JKD lessons for almost 3 years now, and I've learned a lot about Bruce and the style (without a style) he created.

So what if he wasn't the best martial artist? What he did to contribute to the world with his ideas is what he should be remembered for. His top students are probably better practitioners than he ever was, but it doesn't mean his legacy should be shoved aside.

But to answer your question, the only fight I'm aware of, other than ones in Hong Kong, is the fight he had against a local instructor for the rights to teach Wing Chun to Americans. According to his students at the time, who are still alive and teaching, this fight is what led him to create a more efficient take on the martial arts he already knew. Also, Jackie Chan is super famous for the movies he's been in, but he probably won't become a legend unless he does something extraordinary, like Bruce.
 
Well, the hash he was eating was notorious for having lots of toxins involved in its production and since your armpit sweat glands are a major means of getting toxins out of the body his body just couldn't get rid of the toxins building up thus the reaction.  Well, that Youtube video speaks to what I understand to be his general character.  There were somewhat similar accounts of his life in the US.  I don't want to say he wasn't a talented athlete and martial artist.  But he felt the need to project this "Champion of the World" image that was not in keeping with reality.  I think he suffered from something that plagues a great deal of celebrities of not being able to distinguish the characters he played from reality.  Too many kung fu movies is not good for anyone - as stories like the one posted about the four young men who were gunned down for getting aggressive over a silly bar fight and Lee's own reason for fleeing Hong Kong to US - he beat up a local mafia boss's son and was in great danger.  My own friend and training buddy Mark told a similar story of a huge local deadlift record holder/judo expert/all around badass nearly being killed by getting stabbed in the back by a scrawny junkie he'd pissed off.  Doesn't matter how strong, fit, skilled or fast you are, nobody is invincible and so a little humility will go a long way in making your life long, productive and meaningful.

 
 
Arryn,

Yes the story of "fighting for the right to teach" is the story propagated by Linda Lee to glorify her husband's memory.  The facts on the ground don't match up to her account however - the fellow he was fighting against also had non-Oriental students of his own (as did many teachers at the time) although owing to his lack of fame (he was a simple chinese restaurant server) he did not have so many as Lee.   Lee put out an ad challenging anyone in SF Chinatown, claiming he was the best.  The man merely wanted to test his skill against Lee and so took up his challenge.  There is a great deal of controversy around the account, I suggest you research the story rather than believe the Dragon biopic or the accounts of his students (who for all their skill, are not likely to be unbiased sources.)

The reality that Lee reflects is that real men living real lives seldom live up to the icons set up to represent them for posterity.  There is nothing unique about Lee in this regard, but I think it is unhealthy to mix up "Lee the icon" with "Lee the man."  It does injustice to a man's true struggles and it can lead many newcomers to martial arts astray or to place unrealistic expectations on themselves.  I find that a lot of martial arts are bogged down by rather than promoted by these kung fu icons.  This is something that may become clearer as your practice matures.
 
In my JKD days there were people coming through who actually knew him or knew people who knew him. The stories I heard involved the amount of power he could generate in his strikes or how fast he was or how he could anticipate your moves during sparring.

I suppose being an actor brought him to the public's awareness where other equally talented people would have escaped notice.
 
I personally don't care about his stardom or any of the fights he was in, I really only take an interest in what he actually did for martial arts. Hash addiction, sweat glands being removed, being a famous kung fu movie star - they're all irrelevant to why I appreciate what he did.

And yes, Chris, his speed and power generation are still something to admire, and what is often talked about in my school at least.
 
to you who are saying he is a legend, or worth knowing cause of his speed and power, my question is - how do you know he had these qualities? if you can't compare compare these qualities of his to another fighter in fighting matches

 
 
I've heard eye-witness accounts from other people and I don't believe they lied about it. Even though Bruce's qualities weren't compared to others during official competition, they were still compared against the people he interacted with.

Not perfectly reliable I know but if someone says he watched Bruce do such-and-such, or if someone trained with Bruce and describes the experience, I can't say it didn't happen.
 
Other people's account - that's all there is to base it on. Reputable people, such as Dan Inosanto, who (seemingly) have no benefit in distorting the truth, provide this information. I've been to a couple Inosanto seminars, and  he talks about strength and speed feats by Bruce. Why would he make stuff like that up? There's no real gain.
 
arryn im not saying they're lying but there is a reason scientific studies aren't released based on anecdotes and vague historical opinions.  i mean i bet at a strongfirst seminar if you ask "how do you know he is strong?" you can get a more concrete answer than "oh just look at how he moves he is amazing"... you could get an answer like "he does a TGU with a barbell and 150 pounds.
 
"you can get a more concrete answer than “oh just look at how he moves he is amazing”…"
By concrete, do you mean like how Wally Jay watched Bruce kick an enormous heavy bag and bounced it off the ceiling when other people could hardly move it, or how he would take a 100 pound (if memory serves) barbell and hold it out at arms length and just stand there and hold it, or 1 arm pushups on his thumb, or how he could make you react in such a way as to trap your own arms without actually touching you, or how he picked up a pair of kali sticks and told Dan Inosoanto "this is what I'd do with them" and more or less demonstrated the largo mano system without previous exposure to it?

Eyewitness accounts of things like that are out there even if you can't look them up online in some kind of "official and verified" record, and those are the types things that have made an impression on people. Let's face it, he really wasn't the best actor that ever hit the silver screen. Without his physical abilities and his skill in martial arts, no one would have noticed him.
 
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