Barbell Question about modified Faleev/Pavel 5x5

[kikoba]

Long time follower of Pavel, new to these forums.

Some background (skip to Question if you’d rather not ready my story):
My weightlifting journey began as a lanky, hard gaining, 22 year old (now age 42). I had done conditioning, martial arts, and other athletics prior to that, but no serious weight or barbell training. It actually began with Steve Reeves’ “Building the Classic Physique: The Natural Way”, then programs like “Super Squats” and “Rock, Iron, Steel” and I probably read “Keys to Progress” a dozen times in as many weeks. — but I soon found my way to dragondoor.com and PTTP. Pavel reminded me of a childhood mentor (a former Soviet Special Forces martial arts instructor) with whom I studied martial arts — they have the same sense of humor — and the simple, no frills nature of PTTP really spoke to me. I was always more interested in strength over mass (especially as a hardgainer) — though I had much respect and admiration for BBs like Reg Park, Grimek, and Steve Reeves and early physical culturists who were as strong as they looked. Even when religiously following the 20-rep squats and milk program I barely put on mass no matter how strong I got. My hero was Bob Peoples, though. I figured, if a wiry guy like that (at the time, at 6’3” and change, I was 175 lbs sopping wet, at best) could be as strong as that — maybe I had a chance.

Anyway, I went through PTTP as diligently as I could and enjoyed it immensely. I ordered RKC the day it came out and spent a year or two working through every permeation of that I could — kettlebells bring me much joy.

Fast forward 15 or so years and my life and fitness did a 180 degree turn. At a certain point I slipped a few discs (while wiping my a$$ — no joke) and was out of commission for a while — first for health and safety, and later out of fear and trepidation. But when I turned 40 I made a commitment to get over that fear and slowly but surely rebuild my strength. I started with long, hilly hikes. Then the same hikes with weighted carries (sandbag). Then some calisthenics. Then some light KB practice (mostly swings). Finally, I felt confident enough to bring barbells back into the mix. I am just about to finish up a PTTP cycle for the first time in almost 20 years, and it has felt great. No big numbers, but I’m taking it slow. Starting from just 45 lbs. plates on the bar, I’m now at 285 lbs. for 4 reps and expect to get to 300 lbs. for 2 before calling the cycle (we’ll see).

Question:
Now thinking about my next program, I wanted to mix it up and see what I can do about adding some mass. Initially, I was looking at the 6 week hardgainer program from Beyond Bodybuilding (DL and BP in ladders) — but then I read the Faleev/Pavel 5x5 program and it spoke to me. Focusing on one lift per session and only big compound movements is right up my alley. However, my gym is a home gym. I do have a squat rack but not a power rack (won’t fit in the space I have) and I’m concerned about going heavy on SQ and BP without a spotter or power rack pins to save me. I realize, if I do it right, I won’t go close to failure — but safety first, right? Anyway — my question is this: As I, currently, have no interest in competitive PL and only in getting functionally strong and putting on at least a little bit of mass, would it be reasonably similar and effective to do Zercher squats instead of back squats and OHP instead of BP? I realize the OHP doesn’t work as much pec as the BP, but I’d be more interested in the “classic” look anyway (i.e. Saxon) — if I can even put on any significant mass at all. Again — strength and a bomb proof back first, aesthics being just a cherry on the sundae for me.

Also, assuming I do swap OHP in place of BP, would the 2H KB C&P be a worthy substitute following the same set/rep scheme or is barbell the only way to go in this particular program? If KB, would you recommend jumping up a whole pood or only .5 pood once 5x5 is reached at a given weight?

So, to sum up:

1. Good idea to do Zercher instead of back squat?
2. Good idea to do 2H KB C&P instead of barbell OHP?
3. How should weight jumps/reps/sets be handled for KB C&P?

Thanks, in advance, for any guidance on this. My plan is to milk this program for as long as I can or for at least a hanfdul of months and then try my hand a S&S. Mostly, I’m just excited to be back in the iron game and grateful I can lift heavy (for me) again — or at all, for that matter. There’s no feeling like dip, grip, and ripping a weight off the floor and grinding through a final heavy rep.

Power to you all!

 

[Anna C]

@kikoba , that's a great first post! Welcome to the forum. Your ideas and substitutions sound reasonable, but I'm wondering if safety arms for your squat rack are an option?

 

[kikoba]

@Anna C — thanks! And thanks for the reply. I should make a minor correction — they are squat stands vs. a squat rack. Like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01855EGXI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_7k22AbEE8YXA5

It has a safety arm option, but they only extend out about 6.5” — not quite the same as being able to put your trust in pins in a power rack, but better than nothing.

I imagine your question revolves around the fact that I would be able to put up more weight, in general, with the traditional BSQ and BP and that you can’t do a linear progression, per se, with the KB 2H C&P in the way that you can when adding plates to a bar.

I guess I’d also throw in a Gerard bar squat as a “spotter-free” alternative to a BSQ — in that it can go heavier than a Zercher squat. Maybe too similar to the DL, though? I think I remember in Beyond Bodybuilding that Pavel recommended doing the Gerard bar SQ/DL in addition to a traditional DL and not in place of it — being more of a leg exercise — so maybe a viable alternative? (I do have a Gerard bar)

BUT — if the general concensus is BSQ/BP/DL and accept no substitutes — I’m certainly willing to give it a go and just remain hyper-vigilant about never getting close to missing a rep.

 

[jca17]

I ran that program with zercher squat for 10 weeks starting in January and loved it. My groove was more like a back squat, I sat way back, knees vertical, torso forward, and juat broke parallel before coming up. At 6’, 165 body weight (I weighed 150 on January 1, actually 149.7 haha), I got to 195 lb 5x5 Zercher squat, and what really blew me away was that my sumo deadlift went from 1rm of 265 to a comfortable 5x5 with 285, in 10 weeks. Ive trained deadlift for 6 months total before that, but pttp and an earlier cycle of faleev (where I used a front squat kind of groove on zercher, pre Anna C SFL reflection post
Also, on this second try at galeev, I started at 5x8 and milked the 8 rep sets as long as possible. Added 15 pounds in 10 weeks to my perpetually scrawny frame. Ive tried many things: 531 with the drop sets, force feeding, etc, but the 5x8 with zercher sq, sumo dl, and bench press did something for me at age 28 that Ive been looking for for yeas. Granted, im glad I found the right stimulus while Im still young and in my 20s, but Zercher squats worked well for me, and it seems had an amazing synergy with the sumo dl, which used to be my weaker stance.

A few more details: I couldnt find a translation of Faleev original program in his words, so I didnt know what his 5x8 break in period looked like, other than Pavel referencing and recommending against it. I just ccise to start a weight I could hit 5x8 in eacj lift with and increased load each week according to Pavels article (10 pounds in squat and DL, 5 in bench each week). I allowed myself one “retry week at 5x8 with each lift, meaning th first time I could only get 8, 7, 7, 6, 6, I kept the weight the same for the next week to try to hit 5x8. From that point on though I increased weight every week as the reps naturally came down and only in the last 3 weeks, and only for bench press, was I working the program as described where you keep going at the same load multiple weeks until you hit 5x5, hitting my first 135 pound 5x5 at the end.
I also meal prepped a lot of grass fed ground beef with marinara and pasta to eat at work and and also dinner. I did some “forced reps” and “rest pause” with these meals to make sure I actually finished what I prepared since I know my body and know I tend toward hardgainer/under eating to recover. This could mean nibbling on for 15 minutes after I was full. Usually I was in conversation with coworkers, so it was a natural pace. For 3 of the weeks I introduced a pint of milk with each meal, a little less than half a gallon a day (local pasture-raised cow milk). It could be that properly refueling had more to do with the comparative success to when I ran it all strictly 5x5 last spring. It was an effective program that time, as well, but this time was best cycle of my life. Higher rep range for my lanky limbs (Dan John recommendation somewhere) and more eating since my tendency is to not properly refuel during barbell programs.

 

[Anna C]

Now thinking about my next program, I wanted to mix it up and see what I can do about adding some mass.

With this as your goal, the back squat is the best way to get there.

But with the constraints that you have, I think this could work, at least to some degree.

1. Good idea to do Zercher instead of back squat?
2. Good idea to do 2H KB C&P instead of barbell OHP?

Pretty good example there by @jca17 ! Nice work.

I guess I’d also throw in a Gerard bar squat as a “spotter-free” alternative to a BSQ — in that it can go heavier than a Zercher squat. Maybe too similar to the DL, though? I think I remember in Beyond Bodybuilding that Pavel recommended doing the Gerard bar SQ/DL in addition to a traditional DL and not in place of it — being more of a leg exercise — so maybe a viable alternative? (I do have a Gerard bar)

I would say it's more like a deadlift, yes. But maybe a bit more of a squat than a standard DL, so it may help.

I don't know the program that well so can't comment specifically in how to wind it all together with the substitutions. I'd say, start training, see how it goes, and keep us posted!

 

[kikoba]

Thanks @Anna C and @jca17 for the insight. Whatever I figure out on my end, I’ll be sure to post my results here when the cycle is complete.

 

[kikoba]

Just an update here. Haven’t completely formulated the next program — but I did 1RM 305# on my DL today, so the PTTP cycle is definitely at a close. I was gonna try for 300# for 2 (by only adding 5# for my final jump) but I got greedy and stuck to 10# jumps which took me from 295# to 305#. Well, live and learn. At least I have a reasonably accurate DL 1RM for the first time in 20 years.

So — PTTP cycle over. Will go light the rest of the week to recover from a max lift and start a new program a week from today.

 

[Steve Freides]

@kikoba, it sounds like you've done good lifting. I wish you continued strength and success.

-S-