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Bodyweight Question about the anatomy behind the "Corkscrew the shoulder" cue

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Henri

Henri

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Hi! I use the "corkscrew the shoulder" cue a lot with my clients but recently I was thinking about the way it functions and I couldn't figure it out. Because when I corkscrew the shoulder I feel (of course) a lot of tension in my lats (and the rotator cuff is probably working hard as well). But the function of the latissimus is, amongst other things to internally rotate the shoulder. But when I "corkscrew the shoulder" I am externally rotating the arm, which should be the opposite function of the lats right?

How is it possible to perform the opposite function of a muscle and still get perfect tension in that muscle? Hopefully there is an anatomy nerd on this forum that can help me figure this out ;-) . Thanks in advance for your answer!
 
I’m assuming you are talking about this cue when pressing; either push-ups, overhead, etc?

I am sure others will be able to tell you about the lat; I for one don’t think too much about my lats when pressing. You are right that the lay is technically an internal rotator. I think the reason it engages with ER is because ER can facilitate shoulder depression. Back when I was more into calisthenics, we would cue hard ER for front levers, and it definitely lit up the lats more.
 
I don't think the corkscrew part matters.

If I press a barbell overhead or do a push up, I feel my lats engaging at lock-out in the same way as they do in a KB press.
 
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Part of the reason for teaching the corkscrew ( I believe ) is that it is easier on the elbows compared to an internal rotation.
 
Don Fairbanks said:
Part of the reason for teaching the corkscrew ( I believe ) is that it is easier on the elbows compared to an internal rotation.
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I seem to do it reflexively if the implement allows for that movement.

I do it with press dumbbells (unless I consciously try not to), and do it in reverse if pulling with gymnastic rings.
 
I am no anatomy expert, but the way I see/feel it...

Internal shoulder rotation and lat engagement gives you that "bodybuilder lat spread" - lats are engaged, but moved outward for volume.

External rotation (corkscrew) and lat engagement gives you a tight connection between arm and torso - lats are engaged, but tightened/shortened.
 
Anna C said:
Internal shoulder rotation and lat engagement gives you that "bodybuilder lat spread" - lats are engaged, but moved outward for volume.
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I don't think I have the right motor pattern / mind muscle connection to do this:

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My lats act like..."Huh? You're not pulling and not pushing, what are you trying to make us do?"
 
Yeah, I don't know and it has something to do with the arms extended overhead and the lats helping stabilize the scapula (I think).

I did a video a long time ago about having the intention of externally rotating the arms while doing overhead squats leading to more stability in the overhead position. Some OLers agreed, some did not. Honestly, I don't know, but my opinion was based on feel and I think I'm right about it. It's similar when, for example, bench press specialists try to bend the bar into an upside down 'U' while pressing to stabilize the upper back and engage the triceps.

This is the video. I start by talking about squatting down vs. squatting back (Mark Rippetoe was coaching people in the OHSQ at the time and felt the need to address it), and then talk about external rotation:
 
Boris Bachmann said:
the lats helping stabilize the scapula (I think).
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That's where I feel it -- if I reach back with my left arm to touch my right scap while I active my lats in an overhead position, I feel it depressing my scap.

Boris Bachmann said:
I did a video a long time ago about having the intention of externally rotating the arms while doing overhead squats leading to more stability in the overhead position. Some OLers agreed, some did not. Honestly, I don't know, but my opinion was based on feel and I think I'm right about it. It's similar when, for example, bench press specialists try to bend the bar into an upside down 'U' while pressing to stabilize the upper back and engage the triceps.
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There is still some drama on this topic to this day.

"Classically trained" weightlifters seem more likely to agree with you (at least that's how I was taught, and how YouTube OL personas like Sonny Webster and Oleksiy Torokhtiy teach it), but those who learned via Crossfit seem more likely to exhibit the opposite pattern.
 
watchnerd said:
There is still some drama on this topic to this day.

"Classically trained" weightlifters seem more likely to agree with you (at least that's how I was taught, and how YouTube OL personas like Sonny Webster and Oleksiy Torokhtiy teach it), but those who learned via Crossfit seem more likely to exhibit the opposite pattern.
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I feel like I haven't worked mine out yet as clearly one or the other.

Probably why I've been fighting shoulder issues for the past year or so.
 
Anna C said:
I feel like I haven't worked mine out yet as clearly one or the other.

Probably why I've been fighting shoulder issues for the past year or so.
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Mine changed to be more like Boris advocates after I did a bunch of behind-the-neck snatch grip hypertrophy and strength work, e.g. Klokov presses, snatch grip push presses with long lock out holds.

I can still do 'the other way', but it causes my butt to poke way out as if I'm low bar squatting, also like @Boris Bachmann shows.

Ironically, I can OHSQ more weight by doing it 'Rippetoe style', but that position doesn't translate into me snatching more, because I'm slower under the bar if I'm shooting my caboose out.
 
watchnerd said:
Mine changed to be more like Boris advocates after I did a bunch of behind-the-neck snatch grip hypertrophy and strength work, e.g. Klokov presses, snatch grip push presses with long lock out holds.

I can still do 'the other way', but it causes my butt to poke way out as if I'm low bar squatting, also like @Boris Bachmann shows.

Ironically, I can OHSQ more weight by doing it 'Rippetoe style', but that position doesn't translate into me snatching more, because I'm slower under the bar if I'm shooting my caboose out.
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Interesting... I'll put some more focus on it in tomorrow's training session.
 
Henri said:
Hi! I use the "corkscrew the shoulder" cue a lot with my clients but recently I was thinking about the way it functions and I couldn't figure it out. Because when I corkscrew the shoulder I feel (of course) a lot of tension in my lats (and the rotator cuff is probably working hard as well). But the function of the latissimus is, amongst other things to internally rotate the shoulder. But when I "corkscrew the shoulder" I am externally rotating the arm, which should be the opposite function of the lats right?

How is it possible to perform the opposite function of a muscle and still get perfect tension in that muscle? Hopefully there is an anatomy nerd on this forum that can help me figure this out ;-) . Thanks in advance for your answer!
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A common compensatory pattern that occurs with shoulder ER is adduction, one of the primary movements performed by your lats. You can demonstrate it more easily by keeping your arms down at your sides, elbows bent to 90 degrees, and have someone try to push your wrist medially (towards your belly button); you’ll feel your arm adduct (and therefore your lats turn on) as you try to use your external rotators to resist the applied internal rotation force.

-Sam Goldner, DPT
 
Sam Goldner said:
A common compensatory pattern that occurs with shoulder ER is adduction, one of the primary movements performed by your lats. You can demonstrate it more easily by keeping your arms down at your sides, elbows bent to 90 degrees, and have someone try to push your wrist medially (towards your belly button); you’ll feel your arm adduct (and therefore your lats turn on) as you try to use your external rotators to resist the applied internal rotation force.

-Sam Goldner, DPT
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Interesting. Just to make sure I am understanding correctly: do you mean that the lats are adducting the arm instead of the external rotators performing ER? That is, the lats are compenstating for ER by adducting the humerus?
 
Boris Bachmann said:
lats helping stabilize the scapula (I think).
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Just saw this... the lats do not actually connect to the scapula, only to the humerus.

Also:
Pete L said:
If the scapula is more stable it maintains space for the rotator cuff which may help avoid shoulder impingement syndrome.
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If the lat is contracted during overhead pressing movements, its generally "downward" kind of pull may facillitate creating that subacromial space. However, as noted above, it appears that using the lat may be masking the function of the rotator cuff (if I am understanding @Sam Goldner 's post correctly). This would fall in line with my current view of how things work here.

The rotators should be pulling the humerus into the socket (the glenohumeral joint) and the scapular muscles should provide enough scapular rotation such that the humerus is not pinching the rotator cuff by pressing into the acromion. I would venture that if, in theory, the rotators are doing their job, and the lat is contracting, you may get some sort of "optimal" orientation of the shoulder joint.
 
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