bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Ooooh, I stand corrected.... I did not know this!
This clears up some of my confusion about cueing lat tension in pressing movements!
Bodyweight Question about the anatomy behind the "Corkscrew the shoulder" cue
- Thread starter Henri
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So, I put some extra focus on my grip tonight and, wow, it definitely made a difference. As I put in the post, I realized my grip was too loose overhead, especially the pinky side of the hands. You would think I would have learned the lessons of irradiation from StrongFirst! Anyway, gripping tight with the whole hand as soon as the snatches and jerks went overhead helped light up the muscles from the arm to the shoulder and down to the torso. Felt much more solid. Thanks for that #2 tip in your video!
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I understand there is some research that find that lats do attach to the scapula, though not on everybody.
Cadaver study abstract
Cadaver study abstract
Fascinating... The body has so many interesting anatomical variations. 1 in 1,000 people are born with only one kidney. Most of them never know it.
Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Perhaps it is a matter of irradiation. If you tell someone to tense their teres major, most folks will struggle. But the lat is a large muscle which most gym goers will be able to partially isolate.
If you then throw the request to tense the lat into a complex movement, such as a military press, the subject inadvertently lights up tension in the whole musculature around the scapula thereby creating the optimum skeletal position for pressing.
wespom9
Level 6 Valued Member
Best tip I ever learned for grip was start tension on the pinky and work toward the index. I hope that makes sense the way I put it. I think it was an SF thing, I forgot where I first heard it. But damn if start with the pinky/ring finger doesn't light the muscles all the way up the arm
It does, yes... and having an in-depth conversation with my coach Randy about it.
Some overhead movements you do want a tight grip -- press, primarily. Others you don't -- jerk, push press, TGU. But you still want the load effectively placed in the hand.
Barbell snatch and jerk are more like TGU. You don't want a tight grip (so, the irradiation concept is probably not apt). But you do want to use the whole hand, and that's what I was missing. My wrist mobility is such that with snatches, the bar rests entirely on the inside of the hand, not the outside edges. So I can't do what many coaches cue, to push the heel of the hand into the bar. Towards that objective, using the pinkies more deliberately helps get the whole hand involved. This seems to have good effect on stability and control.
Sam Goldner
Level 6 Valued Member
The rotator cuff will externally rotate the humerus, but at the same time as that is happening, unless there is a conscious effort to prevent it, when a high load is attempted the lat will kick on and adduct the humerus. Basically, the body knows what you are trying to do and when little muscles can’t do it, bigger and different muscles get recruited to do the same thing or something similar.
Relating to the lat and scapula: the lat connects to the inferior scapula on approximately 25% of people and acts as a scapular depressor in open chain movements. I believe this was posted about already; I am merely confirming/concurring.
I’m all for trying to puzzle out this stuff, but as a friendly heads up, you’re gonna drive yourself crazy. Just considering the lat and what it’s doing independently gets really confusing: it will pull inferiorly on the humerus, thereby preserving subacromial space, but if it attaches to the scapula (like on 25% of people) it will depress the scapula and therefore cancel out that space creating effect; additionally the scapula needs to elevate during overhead movements, which it can’t do as well with the lat holding it down, and the humerus needs to externally rotate to complete overhead movement comfortably, which it can’t if the lat is active and trying to internally rotate it. Now add in what other muscles are doing and you have myriad additional factors to contend with.
If we are talking about push-ups (especially One-Arm), the benefit may not be at the shoulder but instead at the lumbar spine. The lat connects to the thoracolumbar fascia and helps stabilize the low back, thereby making it easier for you to transfer force throughout the whole body. This is similar to the utilization of the lats in the deadlift in that a component of the purpose is to lock the low back in place.
The other thing that may be happening is because the lat is a glenohumeral extensor it may help kick the tricep on more (besides elbow extension, the tricep also extends the shoulder)…but now you’re back in the confusing territory of contradictory movements.
Thanks,
Sam Goldner, DPT
Ege
Level 6 Valued Member
Hi Anna; previously you have explained a KB swing form mystery to me with very clever wording. Maybe you can do it once again for corkscrew move. During a push up. What do i do going up? And what do I do going down? Do I try to turn my right hand to the “right” all the time? Or do I kind of use my lats and try to turn my right elbow to the right? I hope my question makes sense. I can not understand what to do for my life for this maneuver…
Ege
Level 6 Valued Member
Btw, thank you really, first time this maneuver is making sense, and all the way up and down tension same way right?
Agree with @bluejeff, the inside of the elbow forward is helpful.
The corkscrew should be applied in the positive phase of the push-up. So, yes, think of turning your right hand to the right at the bottom, and as you push up. "A spiral of tension from your armpits to your hands" is how the SFB manual describes it. Your hand won't actually move, and your palm should stay loaded.
A drill to learn it is to hold a stick or dowel in front of you, hands shoulder width apart, and grip it and try to break it. Shoulders press down, lats and pecs will tense. Interesting note: "Initially the corkscrew feels weak, when applied to pushups, because it takes load away from the pecs and places it on the triceps. Get strong."
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
Glad it helped. Often people need just the right cue to figure out a movement, and finding that cue can be tricky sometimes. More or less, yes. You will likely feel it the most on the push and at the top of the movement. Performed this way, you will find that your elbows will naturally drive backwards and stay closer to your body as you descend. As Anna quoted above, it will place more load on your triceps.
Torin
Level 6 Valued Member
I wish there was a way to like a post more than once.
Ege
Level 6 Valued Member
Dear @Anna C and @bluejeff and all. Since the tips and this thread thought me a lot, I want to give an update.
With the tips I have I am able to engage my lats stronger with the push ups but I need to work on remembering to do so in order to engrave the move.
I still have two struggling points but with I believe those areas are going to be polished and needs practise.
1) When I use an archer style pushup, where I put more emphasis to my one arm, I find the Corkscrew move very difficult.
2) With normal push ups, while pushing up corocscrew move now works well , but while going down, my brain still screams now you have to do either the move or the opposite. It still not feel natural going down normally and pushing up with corkscrew.
But I need to practise, I have learned a lot. Thanks.
With the tips I have I am able to engage my lats stronger with the push ups but I need to work on remembering to do so in order to engrave the move.
I still have two struggling points but with I believe those areas are going to be polished and needs practise.
1) When I use an archer style pushup, where I put more emphasis to my one arm, I find the Corkscrew move very difficult.
2) With normal push ups, while pushing up corocscrew move now works well , but while going down, my brain still screams now you have to do either the move or the opposite. It still not feel natural going down normally and pushing up with corkscrew.
But I need to practise, I have learned a lot. Thanks.
I am not sure if corkscrew applies to archer pushup.
Think "zip up" at the bottom. That helps bring all the right tension into play for the push UP.
You can even add a pause at the bottom, and/or practice long, up to 30 sec according to SFB manual, isometric holds in the bottom position. Karen Smith had me doing 15 sec ISO holds in the bottom position (2H, then pushing up with 2 hands) as part of my program and they helped a lot. Stay zipped up... "figure out what you need to prevent the shoulder(s) from rolling forward and the chest from sinking".
Ege
Level 6 Valued Member
Iso hold is an other great tip, I was giving a short pause but with hold I can increase my strength at the bottom to build up to One Hand Push Up. Great advice as well as Zip up. Zip up means to push swiftly and quickly I guess. I need to incorporate that as well.
I guess the rest of the lat engagement and even making it a habit during archer etc for me at least will depend on practice.
I guess the rest of the lat engagement and even making it a habit during archer etc for me at least will depend on practice.
bluejeff
Level 7 Valued Member
I think this is what will help the most
Something to keep in mind:
In my pushups thread I know I suggested the palm cue, but you said that your wrist was bothered by it still. This is something to keep in mind. Your hands are your connection to the ground in a pushup, and are the point of force interaction between the ground and your body. If your wrist(s) is tender, your body is naturally going to try to get out of doing the movement the way you need/want.
Experiment a little with your pushups. Even once your wrist is better you may find that you have to adjusts things here and there to get the movement feeling smoother and stronger. Film yourself so you can watch how using different cues changes your positioning.
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