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Other/Mixed Question about the shoulder

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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A family member will need a shoulder replacement in the future. They told me two orthopaedic surgeons told them the shoulder joint is not load bearing and no one should put weight over top of our head.

So I decided to read up on the matter, and I found the whole situation confusing.

I found some credible sites that agreed. The shoulder is a shallow joint and not meant to be load bearing over head.

I found some that disagreed and from what I gather there is no way the shoulder joint would evolve with that range of motion and be limited to only 50% of it's range (no higher than parallel to the floor).

Some pointed to the joint itself isn't load bearing but the shoulder girdle is. These seemed to make the most sense to me.

Again, I found the well written ones very technical and difficult to understand the nitty gritty details. These were my take always.

Help?
 
as far as I know, your research is generally correct, all of it. The shoulder is most stable when the elbow's even with the shoulder or lower, closer to the body. My gym-based knowledge is the pecs and lats attach to the upper arm, and in these positions they can pull the humerus into the socket and give great stability. Overhead, they may not pull in a way to give stability (if people don't know how to do this), so the smaller muscles designed for stability or rotation can bear greater weight than they should, and get injured, or let the shoulder dislocate. Much of the "hardware" of the shoulder is the bundle of ligaments and tendons, so when the stretch out funny the humerus can just pop out. In sports with a lot of overhand motion, like pitching a baseball, there's a lot of shoulder injuries, where in underhand fast-pitch softball, they're very rare.

If you look at SF standards for shoulder moves, they always stress "packing the shoulder," in swings and getups, and keeping the shoulder away from the ear while pressing, so the lats stay engaged and give the shoulder big-muscle stability. Arm bars are great to develop this as well. If you don't know how to pack the shoulders, etc., it's not bad general advice to keep arms lower, especially if doctors are just trying to protect the population at large.
 
@offwidth

I would have to re-search. For some reason my iPhone doesn't save the history very long.

I remember some edu sites.
 
@Matts

Which was my understanding, you were just able to articulate it.

I have read are considered strong if you can put half your body weight over top of your head using both arms. I read Pavel's ROP which if I understand is half body weight using 1 arm. Which is insane to me.
 
@Mark Kidd You did receive some confusing advice as the shoulder complex is in fact the very first joint "loaded" in the body once a baby begins to push up from the ground after tummy time and then on to crawling.

This is yet another reason why crawling and getups are so good for the shoulder health.

More than likely the orthopedist was suggesting never to load overhead because so many of his patients have upper crossed syndrome and definitely need to be wary of loading overhead in the frontal plane.
 
Matts said:
it's not bad general advice to keep arms lower, especially if doctors are just trying to protect the population at large.
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Most people eat like crap and put their entire body in danger, so let's advise them to stop eating ;)

Joking aside, IMHO this is the same line of thinking that protects people backs by avoiding deadlifts and protects their knees by avoiding squatting (feel in as many examples as you like...)

I think a better approach to protect the population is to actually advise them how to do things properly instead of avoiding them. You know, like doctors try to do with nutrition. The problem is that society is satisfied (and doctors as part of society) if you can sit at your desk and do your job, no need to raise your arm overhead, and definitely not to load it.

By the way, being sedentary and deskbound leads to way more shoulder problems than KB strict press, TGU, bent press, snatch, and the rest of OH movements.

And +17 for @natewhite39 post on shoulder complex loading in early developmental stages. Anyone knows a baby with shoulder impingement?
 
I agree with what @Shahaf Levin said above. If people would learn how to use their body correct, a lot of muscular / joint problems would be overcome. I think we can learn a lot more from babies and toddlers than we think. Ever observed how a toddler picks something up from the floor? Hip hinge and squat in action!
 
Jan said:
I agree with what @Shahaf Levin said above. If people would learn how to use their body correct, a lot of muscular / joint problems would be overcome. I think we can learn a lot more from babies and toddlers than we think. Ever observed how a toddler picks something up from the floor? Hip hinge and squat in action!
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The FMS uses allot of developmental patterns, OS is based on that (I don't know Ground Force but I assume they have similar principles as well, probably some other methods as well)
 
Jan said:
I agree with what @Shahaf Levin said above. If people would learn how to use their body correct, a lot of muscular / joint problems would be overcome. I think we can learn a lot more from babies and toddlers than we think. Ever observed how a toddler picks something up from the floor? Hip hinge and squat in action!
Click to expand...

I have an 11 month old at home. Amazing. When he pulls himself up using my fingers off his back he packs his shoulders.
 
Hello,

Mark Kidd said:
he packs his shoulders.
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Shoulder pack is something we "forget" (deep squat as well).

While you do a proper move (and of course with a weight you can stand), a load above the shoulder is not a bad thing. It is natural, as @natewhite39 underlined to pull and push on it.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@offwidth Yes it works to open up the joint and decrease the effect of minor impingement via traction. For many of my students I will have them start from a low bar position with feet on the ground and eventually progress to a full hang over the course of several weeks.
 
Just some thoughts, FWIW

Mark Kidd said:
They told me two orthopaedic surgeons told them the shoulder joint is not load bearing and no one should put weight over top of our head.
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1) There is no end all be all text that says this. Only opinions.

2) Orthopedic surgeons are generally very conservative in their advice to patients.

3) Orthopedic surgeons see damaged shoulders from people failing to put weight over the top of their heads properly. If you're going overhead you better do everything right with your form and listen to your body. There should be no pain. When shoulders are overworked the rotator cuff tires and stability decreases, predisposing to greater wear and tear in the joint. Know your limits. For me this happens at high volumes of pressing, like in the last few weeks of RoP press ladders. Your mileage may vary.

4) They are totally correct in the sense that we do not walk on our hands all day:)

Mark Kidd said:
I found some credible sites that agreed. The shoulder is a shallow joint and not meant to be load bearing over head.
Click to expand...

In terms of shoulder mechanics, the scapula upwardly rotates in order to provide a more sturdy base of support for the humerus in shoulder abduction/flexion. So obviously we are meant to get our arms up there...or we couldn't get them up there. The shoulder joint is meant to be shallow in order to provide a large range of motion to the joint. Shallow joints however do not have great stability. So, shouldn't we then be interested in improving our shoulder stability through a full pain free range of motion??? Every strength athlete needs to answer that question for themselves.

A couple of other notes:

Everyone's acromion process is a bit different. Some are more hooked while others are more flat. The hooked ones can cause more wear to the cuff because the subacromial space is decreased. So, if you are one of those, nature may have selected you not to be an overhead athlete-sorry. Maybe if you have a hooked acromion but your scapular mechanics are perfect you can get away with some overhead stuff...it just depends. Working within your pain free range is always a good answer.

The scapula is the core of the upper extremity. Most people have poor scapular mechanics. How then can the head of the humerus be properly supported when the arm is raised if the scapula does not properly retract and upwardly rotate? Its support is diminished, therefore the rotator cuff and shoulder girdle work harder to stabilize the glenohumeral joint, taking up the slack for a lack of bony support from the scapula, and the space under the subacromial arch is diminished, predisposing to impingement and cuff wear. This, I believe, is a major problem-and upper crossed syndrome plays a big role in this.

There are people out there with degenerative cuff tears who did nothing to deserve it(in the sense that they didn't necessarily use their shoulder heavily throughout life)-they tend to be over 65 years old and female. The elderly can have cuff tears and no pain. We like to blame our pain on arthritis and degeneration and often it can be that or partially that. But it can also be a functional issue, complicated by or just hiding behind what is seen on imaging. That's another can of worms-diagnosing pain by imaging alone instead of physical exam w/imaging to correlate. But I digress.
 
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And we should remember that while rotator cuffs get a lot of mention when talking about shoulders, there are a number of other shoulder structures that can cause problems... labrum, biceps tendon, bone degeneration (arthritis), inflamed bursas, etc...
 
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