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Other/Mixed Question for Pavel Regarding Rite of Passage Conditioning Protocol

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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@John Grahill

Brilliant! I love that. Definitely different than the way I’ve thought about it (the whole thing conditioning) but reading that, it really resonates... Best I’ve ever felt training were runs with the pull-ups. Maybe time to revisit.
 
By the way, subsequent runs through the ROP pressing ladders were done with significantly more rest through the ladders ... I became less pedantic worrying about the rest between rungs and ladders. It worked well as I could more explosively work on the ballistics afterward. The workouts were longer but I told myself basically to suck it up.
This is closer to what I’m doing now. C&P as soon as 100% recovery between rungs and ladders. Clock keeps me on task. Longer workouts for me throw other obligations out of balance otherwise I’d probably experiment with breaking up the ladders throughout the day.
 
Well, while we're on the subject, at my age (55) minimalism works best. I have a lot of training mileage on me. Doing
a program like the ROP and minimising the "variety days" to as little as possible works for me best. I see guys write about "oh I need squats for this, curls for that, calves here".... They've in my humble opinion missed the boat. Yes the clean and press hammers the shoulders but it is not a "shoulder exercise" .... learn to get out of the "bodybuilding" mentality and view the exercise as a full body movement! Think training movement, not body part.

Will it make me win Mr. Olympia, no. I wouldn't want to be one of those folks! But, will a heavy kettlebell and a pullup bar get me in shape, yes! Will it give me strength and muscle where I need it, yes! Forges a strong and athletic physique. I got into kettlebells after years of hammering myself pushing for that "super bench press".... And frankly hurting myself. Use of kettlebells changed my training philosophy as I think "old school" when lifting a weight above your head was the primary focus. Even better yet, when I was an active duty LEO, it was convenient as I could do them at home with no spotter at odd times that coincided with shift work.
 
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If you were to re-write the RoP conditioning protocol today, would it look the same?

(I wanted to ask at Strong Endurance in Denver this fall, but didn't get the chance)

thanks

So I took the chance and asked Pavel below his latest article:

May I ask, would you also recommend a more AGT approach for the ballistic portion of ROP? The question comes up every now on the forum and there are quite different views. From “follow as written” to “replace it with 044 swings/snatches” or “replace with A+A on variety days”.

Any clarification on this classic would be highly appreciated.

... here is his answer:
Pavel said:
Thank you, Bauer!

There is a great many ways to structure AGT style training for the ROP snatches.

044 can support your USSS snatch test training—but it cannot be the only method. I suggest you look up Derek and Ryan Toshners’ articles and posts on the forum.
 
Bauer,

Thanks for striking when the iron was hot lol. I saw your comment on his article last night and was hoping he would reply. I asked the question a while back on his last article, but to no avail...

I guess the follow-up question for me would become; are all of the "great many ways to structure AGT style training for ROP snatches" as supportive to the pressing goals as the original program?
 
I guess the follow-up question for me would become; are all of the "great many ways to structure AGT style training for ROP snatches" as supportive to the pressing goals as the original program?
Feel free to ask it. However, I think he would frame it as supporting the snatch test and not as supporting the pressing part, if that makes sense.

This should be one of the plans he is referring to:

And this one by Craig Marker would possibly also fit the bill:
 
Feel free to ask it. However, I think he would frame it as supporting the snatch test and not as supporting the pressing part, if that makes sense.

This should be one of the plans he is referring to:

And this one by Craig Marker would possibly also fit the bill:
I think the TNT article is what he had in mind. Certainly more complicated than RoP as written...

Edit: Attached is the best I can figure (it works better for me visually). Color corresponds to bell colors, assuming men's Open/Classic 24kg as test bell.
 

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  • TNT Snatch Test Training.pdf
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I think the TNT article is what he had in mind. Certainly more complicated than RoP as written...

Edit: Attached is the best I can figure (it works better for me visually). Color corresponds to bell colors, assuming men's Open/Classic 24kg as test bell.
Very cool, thanks for the visual summary. The third session in weeks 1-5 are swings, right?
 
Hi @Oscar,

Good point. There absolutely is room for interpretation. I've approached this a few different ways, but am currently employing the following scheme based on guidance from a very experienced SF coach:

Light Day - Snatch Test Size Bell (24 kg) - sets of 10 reps - I calibrate the 50% effort based on rest time. For me, snatch test level of rest would roughly be my 100% effort (i.e. 100% effort looks like ~20 seconds for 10 snatches + 10 seconds rest = 30 seconds) about a 2:1 work to rest ratio. To cut down to 50% effort I double the rest, so sets every 40 seconds or 1:1. If I'm feeling good I shoot more for the 60% effort range with sets every 35 seconds. This works for the higher probability rolls quite well (4-9 min total). Rolls below 4 end up being closer to the 2:1 ratio. Rolls above 9 are harder to be prescriptive with. Sets on the 45 or 50 seconds depending how I'm feeling.

Medium Day - One-arm swings 32 kg - Sets of 10. I can complete 100 swings with a 32 in 5 minutes with an RPE of about 8. I don't have an accelerometer, but I feel that power does not drop off for me with this bell doing sets of 10. Similar story here with calibrating the 80% effort. To simplify, I assume sets on the 0:30 are 100% effort for most rolls (~1:1.125) so adding 20% more rest puts me in the range between sets on the 0:35 and 0:40.

Heavy Day - two-arm swings 40 kg - Sets of 10. Here too bell choice is based on no drop-off in power during sets of 10 under most reasonable conditions. I use sets on the 0:30 as my 100% baseline here. Again, this works well for the higher probability roll totals. Above 9 may call for a bit more rest depending on the day.

When RPE gets consistently lower than prescribed I have been chopping off a few seconds of rest each set.

This layout is just great! Many thanks for sharing. I am eyeing a return to ROP soon and was trying to find a way of making the ballistics make sense following Simple standard. This seems complete.
 
Feel free to ask it. However, I think he would frame it as supporting the snatch test and not as supporting the pressing part, if that makes sense.

This should be one of the plans he is referring to:

And this one by Craig Marker would possibly also fit the bill:

So I asked and did receive a reply...


James Sullivan
James Sullivan says:
January 31, 2020 at 4:54 am
Are all of the “great many ways to structure AGT style training for ROP snatches” as supportive to the RoP pressing goals as the original program?
Reply

Not sure how you all are thinking about his response, but I'm looking forward to further discussion with everyone!

Below are the points I have taken from Pavel's comments:
  • AGT is not enough -on its own- to achieve 10 minute snatch test.
  • AGT for 10 minute snatch test is "at least not in conflict" with RoP pressing goal

Points I still do not understand:
  • Is the original RoP program better suited for (more supportive of) achieving the 1/2 BW pressing portion of the RoP goal when compared to the various AGT substitutes?
  • If the original RoP goals remain (1/2 BW Clean & Press AND 10 min / 200 rep snatch test) what is the most efficient and effective conditioning protocol to follow. What is Pavel's recommendation? What data is available to support the claim?
 
Below are the points I have taken from Pavel's comments:
  • AGT is not enough -on its own- to achieve 10 minute snatch test.
  • AGT for 10 minute snatch test is "at least not in conflict" with RoP pressing goal

Points I still do not understand:
  • Is the original RoP program better suited for (more supportive of) achieving the 1/2 BW pressing portion of the RoP goal when compared to the various AGT substitutes?
  • If the original RoP goals remain (1/2 BW Clean & Press AND 10 min / 200 rep snatch test) what is the most efficient and effective conditioning protocol to follow. What is Pavel's recommendation? What data is available to support the claim?

Yes, those would be my takeaways, too.

I would not think too much in terms of carryover - or at least not plan on it.

A couple of thoughts:
  • C&P alone will probably already do a lot for your conditioning. There are some long sessions wiht a lot of work (and a lot of hinges). 5x(1,2,3,4,5) means that you will be doing 150 cleans (75+75) and also get stronger.
  • These days, glycolitic training is usually more framed as a peaking training (bus bench and not park bench). So depending on how long you are going to be focussing on ROP, I guess you could first start out building the base with AGT style training and then use 1-3 more glycolitic sessions per week four a month or so as a peaking strategy.
  • According to Issurin and Lustig, anerobic capacity/gylcolitic endurance will usually have a residual training effect of 18 days (+/-4)! Thus even if you want to build on it again you could easily take two weeks off of glycolitic training after a snatch test day and then build on that with one session per week and maybe more, leading up to the test (maybe adding a couple of easy days before it for tapering).
  • OR you use the residual to follow more of a block training strategy: During the last 2-3 weeks of a given ROP cycle, solely maintain your glycolitic capacity in order to leave more energy for pressing.
Personally I like the plan from Aleks Salkin (without ever having tried it).

It goes from 3/3 OTM to 8/8 OTM with a heavier bell than your testing bell (a 5-7 TRM bell) once per week. And the plan is similar to 033 and 044: You take an extra minute of rest after two sets. And you only do two series, so you are done after less than five minutes.
2 minutes: snatch on the minute
1 minute: rest
2 minutes: snatch on the minute

BTW: This new plan should also give you some inspiration:
 
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Wow - thank you James Sullivan.

You answered all my RoP questions in that one post...wish there was a way to Like a post x10 times!

@Maine-ah KB

How did you structure the pressing portion when the volume ended up being to much?

Factors I have found critical (aka I have made mistakes with in the past)
1) correct bell size
2) properly interpreting and laying out the plan
3) managing the rest b/w rungs and ladders
4) overtraining due to other activities

Bell size .... I have found that if I can't clean and press the bell I'm planning on working with for at least 7 reps - clean for each press rep - I have trouble with the volume as well. As taught in Plan Strong, to keep my form perfect for each rep during a session, I need my planned rep totals to be about 50% of my rep max for that particular effort. I've found 7 reps is the sweet spot for me.

Program layout .... so far I have seen the most progress when I'm patient and stick to the minimum increase each week. This has required discipline on my part for sure. Many times tempted to add an extra set and shorten the program. Again when I drag it out until the point where the presses are nearly effortless and I have to remind myself to keep tension and irradiation then I have seen the best progress.

WeekHeavy (Sat)Light (Mon)Medium (Wed)
13(3)3(3)3(3)
24(3)4(3)4(3)
35(3)5(1)5(2)
41(4) + 4(3)5(2)5(3)
52(4) + 3(3)5(2)5(3)
63(4) + 2(3)5(2)5(3)
74(4) + 1(3)5(2)5(3)
85(4)5(2)5(3)
91(5) + 4(3)5(3)5(4)
102(5) + 3(3)5(3)5(4)
113(5) + 2(3)5(3)5(4)
124(5) + 1(3)5(3)5(4)
135(5)offTest

Rest between rungs and ladders .... when I start with a new bell I give myself up to 3:30 between sets (I think up to 5 would be ok. After that your body and CNS start to down regulate - vasculature, etc.). As I progress and the work becomes a bit easier over time I scale back the rest to a target of 1:30. The goal is 100% recovery before the next sets. These are repeats. Fatigue should not be noticeably accumulating as you move through a session. If so, add recovery time. I based these numbers on a combination of inputs including physiology of recovery stuff from Strong Endurance and dialing in from personal experience. This helps to keep session duration reasonable as you approach the 75 rep finally.

Overtraining .... (caveat I'm almost 42 so this may not apply to younger or older folks) I have done RoP including the pull-ups, done it in addition to other deadlift programming, also done it while training for SFB and also done it with only variety days as indicated in the original RoP. Guess when the most progress was made... with 'as written' variety days that I skip if I'm not feeling 100%.

Like you say - many ways to skin the cat, but this way has proven to work the best for me.

Thanks for reading!!
 
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