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Bodyweight question on rep/set set up...is there a certain benefit to 5/3/2 or can we try something different?

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macknumber9

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Ok so 5, 3, 2 is great and all but what if one wants to really maximize their low end power and have it carry over to their 5 rep max...I believe 5 reps is a combination of strength and size. The more reps one does in a set the more they are working the muscle itself...fatiguing the muscle. I would say this is inversely correlated. e.g 2 reps works more muscle and less nervous system than 1 rep...3 reps more than 2 etc etc etc...

So if I were to alter the rep scheme do you think it could be advantageous or is there some sort of physiological benefit to doing the 10 reps in just 3 sets. I was thinking of either doing 10x1 or 3x3 + 1x1...or simply 5x2...The difference in 10 sets of 1 or 1 set of 10 is obviously fatigue and nervous system vs muscular activation...obviously it's easier to do 10 sets of 1 than 1 set of 10 and more weight can be used. So this has me curious. If I were to do 1 set of 10 fatigue would set in because of lack of rest and the muscles would be worked more and different energy system would come in to play....If I were to do 10 sets of 1 with 5 minutes rest I obviously would be able to handle more weight...I'm not saying I'm planning on doing 10 sets of 1 but can somebody explain the benefits of each and why I can't tinker with things and go for maybe 3x3 + 1x1...

The only difference would be fatigue. I would be better managing fatigue but working the muscles less. I wouldn't add any size at all because the muscles just aren't getting fatigued and there's no reason for them to get really any bigger but they would be able to fire better I would strongly assume due to the fact that I can handle more weight this way and work the nervous system harder. Can training like this be beneficial. Keep all the rules the same...5 minutes rest periods, linear progression (or any of the other progression models), 5 days a week. Has anyone tried something like this? I think this would be good to go to after a while of 5/3/2....periodize into lower rep training like this and then fall back to the good ole 5/3/2 model...
 
I see no problem. The total reps are still the same.
This looks a lot like Easy Strength and its Rule of 10 to me.
Obvious difference would be time. Using full 5min rest 5/3/2 will take 11-12min, 10x1 ~46min.
 
I see no problem. The total reps are still the same.
This looks a lot like Easy Strength and its Rule of 10 to me.
Obvious difference would be time. Using full 5min rest 5/3/2 will take 11-12min, 10x1 ~46min.

cool thanks for the reply. Yeah it would take much more time for sure but if it allows me to get stronger than I'm ok with that. I have to read that book Easy Strength.
 
@macknumber9, there are a lot of assumptions in your post. You can tinker with whatever you like but your questions have been asked and answered many times before. The general guidelines still apply - low rep sets with more weight are more geared towards the neural/skill aspects of strength and higher rep sets with less weight favor hypertrophy. For strength training at StrongFirst, we generally recommend keeping the reps to five and under. The Power To The People book explains all this.

-S-
 
I have read PTTP multiple times...

Since I am personally not after hypertrophy my question is why even bother with 5 reps...just get to daily 10 reps with triples or doubles or even singles...

If you can link me I would be happy to just read those threads...I wanted to word it my way and had no idea what to even search for with my particular question...

Pttp explains nothing more than 5 reps but if I want to soley focus on strength why even bother with 5 reps...why not just so the same template but not 5, 3, 2 and do it with more sets...then when I plateau and stall I can revert back to 5, 3, 2...
 
I find that the optimal rep range is dependent on the weight lifted. For something in the 70-80% range of your 1RM it's good to use five reps. When it gets to 85-90%, lesser reps are better.

To get the optimal results you generally have to do both. Build a strong foundation with sets of five reps in the lighter range and practice peaking and heavier exertions with few reps with the really heavy weights.
 
@macknumber9 PTTP is just one program. There are many. Lots play with 5 reps, some focus solely on triples, some on doubles, some a mix. Read the book Easy Strength, there is more on programming like this.

I think you need to consider long term recovery (day to day or week to week). Honestly, good luck doing 10 singles in one day, even at ~80% 1RM, for 5 days. Even if you lift doubles or triples and you keep the weights at a 4-6RM, depending on your frequency recovery may be challenging. You many only be able to do that 2x a week. 50 reps a week (5 days x 10 reps) with all the weight at an 80-90% level could compound fatigue over the long haul. PTTP is an daily program; doing 5 reps is manageable because on either a linear or wave cycle, not many lifts get into a 6-7 RM. Don't forget, the program starts around the 10RM weight. Heavier RM may require less frequency.
 
@macknumber9, PTTP's 5 reps are suggested to be done as a "set of singles" - they're not really a set of 5, anyway. You have an entire continuum available to you, e.g., you can

  • light touch-and-go - full controlled negative, barely touch the ground and come right back up again.

  • touch-and-go - put the weight down completely but stay tight and come right back up again.

  • reset at the bottom - put the weight down, keep your hands on the bar, but take a fresh breath before you come up

  • stand up between reps - put the weight down, stand up, take a few breaths and shake it out, but do your next rep without moving away from the bar.

  • singles on short rest - walk away from the bar between reps but keep the rests short, e.g., a new rep every :45 seconds.

  • singles on long rests - walk away, left your heart rate come down and get your breath back completely before the next rep.

And I'm sure someone could find a way to specific something in between each of my steps listed above.

If strength is your goal and hypertrophy is to be minimized, keep the rests long.

-S-
 
@macknumber9 PTTP is just one program. There are many. Lots play with 5 reps, some focus solely on triples, some on doubles, some a mix. Read the book Easy Strength, there is more on programming like this.

I think you need to consider long term recovery (day to day or week to week). Honestly, good luck doing 10 singles in one day, even at ~80% 1RM, for 5 days. Even if you lift doubles or triples and you keep the weights at a 4-6RM, depending on your frequency recovery may be challenging. You many only be able to do that 2x a week. 50 reps a week (5 days x 10 reps) with all the weight at an 80-90% level could compound fatigue over the long haul. PTTP is an daily program; doing 5 reps is manageable because on either a linear or wave cycle, not many lifts get into a 6-7 RM. Don't forget, the program starts around the 10RM weight. Heavier RM may require less frequency.

Very good point and point taken...

I was thinking of maybe dropping to doubles because my training career it's something I have not yet experienced with...i always have worked in the 5-10 rep range...

I would agree that the volume intensity and frequency may be too much with sets of 2 because of what you mentioned...i think maybe dropping the volume would be best for this...skmply a triple followed by a double 6 days a week...the volume is only 30 reps a week but the frequency is good so the movement gets enough practice and the intensity of course gets up there....i would start with around 80% 1rm and build up to 90% over time...while staying very fresh because of the lower amount of volume...
 
So if I were to alter the rep scheme do you think it could be advantageous or is there some sort of physiological benefit to doing the 10 reps in just 3 sets.
There's a few benefits. It is more helpful for muscle building to push the reps to 5 or higher. But you're not interested in that.
It is much more convenient on your schedule. Spending 45 minutes on one exercise seems ok for those competing, but a bit overkill otherwise. I think lightening the weight, and compressing the reps onto fewer sets gives you more time to work on other important things or goals (ab and grip work, for instance, which are both useful for Deadlifting and Pull-ups, but don't put more stress on the prime muscle).

Another big benefit is that you have to lighten the load. This seems counterintuitive (after all, we want to do less reps and more sets to have the chance to use bigger loads). But it isn't necessarily wise to work with 85+% of your 1RM all the time. If there's one thing Pavel is famous for, is showing you can get rather strong with doing most of your work in the 70-80 % 1RM range.

These lighters weights allow excellent form and confidence. And since they're lighter, you might as well do multiple reps with them. So think of sets of 5 reps as a "safety mechanism" that keeps you from going too heavy all the time. If you pick your load based on the reps (and you should!), then doing sets of 5s will demand lighter weights. Which can be good!
 
I would agree that the volume intensity and frequency may be too much with sets of 2 because of what you mentioned...i think maybe dropping the volume would be best for this...skmply a triple followed by a double 6 days a week...the volume is only 30 reps a week but the frequency is good
This seems good for a Deadlift, if that's what you're asking.

You're interested also in Pull-ups, and I'm not sure I'd do that few Pull-ups in a week. 5/3/2 six times a week on Pull-ups is already a bit on the low end. You've made excellent progress on it, but it's not a lot of reps. Cutting that in half might be way too little.

Consider that Pavel recommends between 300-500 Pull-ups per month (a minimum of 75 reps per week) in his Ladders Reloaded Program. I'm not sure I'd go as high as 500 unless a lot of those are unweighted, but 300 a month seems like an OK number to shoot for.

Some time ago, I used 5/3/1 on Pull-ups. I'd get about 35 Pull-ups a week. My results were craptacular. I wouldn't recommend 5/3/1 or that kind of volume for Pull-ups. It's a bit low. You might have better luck than me of course!
 
@305pelusa that is an awful lot of pulls. I can't imagine there would be any deadlifting or swings within that program? High enough volume already?

Lately I've been curious about total weekly or monthly volume for movements when I look at some programs. Their seems to be an upper feasible limit to most exercises that is remotely sustainable (of course, dependent on intensity level). I refer to a "park bench" style number.

Some examples of what I mean
Swings - 2000 monthly volume, 500 a week - S&S guidelines. ROP has about 300 a week, but doesn't request the same recovery. This is very repeatable as many of us found
Presses - ROP gets crazy near the end, but definitely not sustainable. I would guess maybe 50 presses a week, 200 if programmed correctly could be ideal (I can't remember the other thread one poster created a Press program that had this number). ROP is a good example of the "bus bench" volume that I would be hard pressed to repeat one after another.
Deadlifts - PTTP has a monthly total of 200 at 10 a day.

Of course, all total volume is dependent on intensity (as in %RM) and therefore affects frequency. Great programs that deadlift 200 times a month, and some like 5/3/1 that you could deadlift as low as 50 times in a month. It just fascinates me. I don't really know where I'm going with these thoughts.
 
@305pelusa that is an awful lot of pulls. I can't imagine there would be any deadlifting or swings within that program?
Umh. I believe Squats are fair game while using the Ladder Reloaded for Pull-ups, so I'm sure Deadlifts are also fine. I don't see the issue. You mean because of your grip?

Of course, all total volume is dependent on intensity (as in %RM) and therefore affects frequency.
Totally! All depends on intensity of course. That Ladders program does quite a bit of work with the 70-80 % range. I think 300 reps a month are OK with that. If you want to go higher (500), you'll have to cut some of the weight I think. I know I would hehe.

Depends on the person too of course. Not everyone will be trained enough to just do that. But lots of experienced street workout practitioners do things like 100 Pull-ups a day, for a month. So your training ability is relevant too.
 
@305pelusa grip was the main factor, as well as posterior chain fatigue. I've never done that many pulls or chins on any program (although I want to... one of my weaker movements) but I couldn't imagine doing a ton with heavy swings, heavy DL's or high rep KB snatches on the grip.
 
@305pelusa grip was the main factor, as well as posterior chain fatigue. I've never done that many pulls or chins on any program (although I want to... one of my weaker movements) but I couldn't imagine doing a ton with heavy swings, heavy DL's or high rep KB snatches on the grip.
Gotcha. Well, the grip adapts pretty quickly. I'd do the Deadlifting before (which requires a fresh grip) and Pull-ups after. For me, grip was never the limiting factor with pull-ups (my pulling muscles were!), so I wouldn't personally see much issue. But everyone is different.

The posterior chain muscles used are pretty different so I wouldn't see much of an issue there. Pull-ups hit the upper back while Deadlifts hit the lower back.

You also adapt quickly. Maybe you'll be sore the first week, but you'll be fine after. Your body adapts quickly hehe.
 
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