Bodyweight Question re: using counterweights in the pistol

[sizzlefuzz]

Hey guys,

I've been absolutely loving the pistol since attending the SFB workshop about a month ago and have recently began a slightly altered training phase where my primary points of emphasis will be on the pisol & OAPU. Regarding the pistol, I really covet the skill and love the idea of being able to train the lower body hard without any additional equipment. However, I am still working my mobility to be able to do a free standing pistol without a counterweight.

The ACE (artificially controlled environment--holding on to a post in my basement when needed for support) pistol OR using a counterweight to balance myself in the bottom position have been making up the majority of my pistol reps.

Here is my question: When using a counterweight, I have been doing 5-6 singles per side and I am capable of using either a 15lb dumbell or 12kg kettlebell. Should I be using the lightest counterweight possible, or would it be better using the 12kg bell & holding it closer to my body than the lighter weight?

I will look to do a video & try to figure it out sometime either Friday or Saturday.

Thank you & happy training!

 

[User 7569]

I've found that anything between 5 and 15 pounds is a good counterweight for the pistol. Anything below that is not enough support, anything above that makes the movement harder due to the added weight

regarding the freestanding pistol: Steve maxwell says it is much more of a stunt and says the balance aspect of the freestanding pistol doesn't really crossover to much of anything.

he goes onto say that suspension pistols (or pistols with a counterweight, whatever you need for balance) are really all you need to reap the strength benefits of the pistol. the balance aspect is very specific to the pistol itself.

In fact, if you can manage a double or a triple on a pistol while holding onto a rope/trx/rings, it is probably going to build more strength than singles of the freestanding pistol

hope that makes sense, good luck to you

 

[sizzlefuzz]

I've found that anything between 5 and 15 pounds is a good counterweight for the pistol. Anything below that is not enough support, anything above that makes the movement harder due to the added weight

regarding the freestanding pistol: Steve maxwell says it is much more of a stunt and says the balance aspect of the freestanding pistol doesn't really crossover to much of anything.

he goes onto say that suspension pistols (or pistols with a counterweight, whatever you need for balance) are really all you need to reap the strength benefits of the pistol. the balance aspect is very specific to the pistol itself.

In fact, if you can manage a double or a triple on a pistol while holding onto a rope/trx/rings, it is probably going to build more strength than singles of the freestanding pistol

hope that makes sense, good luck to you

I guess I'm just a wannabe stuntman then! I'm going to give 12kg a try and see what happens next session. I feel like having the weight closer to my torso will mirror the freestanding, unweighted movement better. I can crack off a bunch with ring support, but I feel like the ring support throughout the movement leads to too much unintentional overcompensation from the upper body/leaking work from the lower body.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Should I be using the lightest counterweight possible, or would it be better using the 12kg bell & holding it closer to my body than the lighter weight?

IMO, it is better to learn the move with bodyweight only. Indeed, it is possible that the counterweight "hide" an issue (flexibility, balance, mobility). That way, the light counterweight "helps" you.

I do admit that at the beginning, I was more comfortable with a light weight to do my pistol.

If I were in your shoes, I would not use the weight. I'd work on bdw pistol to be sure I get good form. Then, I'd add some weight to work even more on strength building.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[mikhael]

As @pet' said, work on bw pistol until you feel comfortable with the movement. Improve your flexibility and mobility at first, then start adding weight.

 

[Steve W.]

IMO, using a counterweight is fine. Whether you use a slightly heavier counterweight with a shorter lever (held closer to the body) or a lighter counterweight with a longer lever probably won't make any substantial difference.

Another strategy that is completmentary to using a counterweight is doing BW pistols with a heel lift. Raise your heel on a weight plate or any similarly stable object. Depending on how close you are to doing a BW pistol, even wearing a shoe with a raised heel may be enough. Raising you heel will improve your leverage, but get you used to doing the movement without a counterweight.

I prefer using aids like a counterweight or heel lift that allow you to do the full movement rather than just struggling to increase your range of motion.

A few other strategies to throw in the mix:
--Deck pistols. Squat down on two feet, roll onto your back with your arms over your head and your legs in the air, then roll forward back into the bottom of the squat on one foot and stand up. In other words, you use the momentum of the forward roll to assist you in balancing on one foot at the bottom and standing up. You can use a counterweight held in your hands if necessary. You may want to practice tw0-legged deck squats to get in the groove of the roll before trying deck pistols.

--Bottom up pistols. Squat down on two feet, then shirt your weight onto the working leg and extend the other leg in front of you in the bottom position of the pistol. If you can't stand up from there, just hold the bottom position for time.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Here is nice video of K. Starrett rigarding ankle flexibility / mobility


Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[sizzlefuzz]

IMO, using a counterweight is fine. Whether you use a slightly heavier counterweight with a shorter lever (held closer to the body) or a lighter counterweight with a longer lever probably won't make any substantial difference.

Another strategy that is completmentary to using a counterweight is doing BW pistols with a heel lift. Raise your heel on a weight plate or any similarly stable object. Depending on how close you are to doing a BW pistol, even wearing a shoe with a raised heel may be enough. Raising you heel will improve your leverage, but get you used to doing the movement without a counterweight.

I prefer using aids like a counterweight or heel lift that allow you to do the full movement rather than just struggling to increase your range of motion.

A few other strategies to throw in the mix:
--Deck pistols. Squat down on two feet, roll onto your back with your arms over your head and your legs in the air, then roll forward back into the bottom of the squat on one foot and stand up. In other words, you use the momentum of the forward roll to assist you in balancing on one foot at the bottom and standing up. You can use a counterweight held in your hands if necessary. You may want to practice tw0-legged deck squats to get in the groove of the roll before trying deck pistols.

--Bottom up pistols. Squat down on two feet, then shirt your weight onto the working leg and extend the other leg in front of you in the bottom position of the pistol. If you can't stand up from there, just hold the bottom position for time.

Hello,


IMO, it is better to learn the move with bodyweight only. Indeed, it is possible that the counterweight "hide" an issue (flexibility, balance, mobility). That way, the light counterweight "helps" you.

I do admit that at the beginning, I was more comfortable with a light weight to do my pistol.

If I were in your shoes, I would not use the weight. I'd work on bdw pistol to be sure I get good form. Then, I'd add some weight to work even more on strength building.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Thank you guys for the advice! I will check out the KStar video, although the warm up routine from the SFB user course has me making leaps and bounds with respect to my mobility, but we can always learn more. I have been doing deck pistols for a while as more of a warm up, but I put them on pause for a bit as I felt I was getting more of a stimulus from ACE/counterweight style. I also understand working it with the bdw only as @pet' mentioned, though I've found in less than a month my mobility/flexibility have increased a lot and doing things like static holds @ the bottom, though torturous, help me feel a LOT more comfortable with the movement.

 

[offwidth]

Another 'technique' which may be counterintuitive is to practice pistols in heavy boots such as mountaineering boots or ski boots. Just beware that this may mask some flexibility issues...

 

[305pelusa]

You know in purely Physics terms, it's exactly the same. If using X weight at arm's length from your body is what allows you to Pistol, then using a bigger weight than X some distance closer to you until it allows you to Pistol will lead to the exact same Pistol groove.

It's even the same torque about the shoulder too.

Lighter but at arm's length does have an advantage. You can buy two gallons of water and use that as counterweights. Drink water as sessions go by. It's harder to modulate weights of ~12 Kgs unless you got a sand bag I suppose.

Just some thoughts

@Jak Nieuwenhuis : Any chance you could give a link as to where Steve called the Pistol mostly a stunt? That doesn't sound much like him :/

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

egarding the freestanding pistol: Steve maxwell says it is much more of a stunt and says the balance aspect of the freestanding pistol doesn't really crossover to much of anything.

As an old geezer working to maintain, I know that balance is one of the things that tends to go with aging. Anything you can do to sneak in a bit of balance training will be to your benefit in the long run. Everything from drying your feet after a shower to picking stuff up off the floor to being surprised by a misstep on uneven ground requires balance. Lack of balance and lack of general muscle strength seem to me to be the top two on the list of things that put people in "assisted living" and other such warehouse type places.

 

[305pelusa]

IMO, it is better to learn the move with bodyweight only. Indeed, it is possible that the counterweight "hide" an issue (flexibility, balance, mobility). That way, the light counterweight "helps" you.

I had a pretty long discussion with a close friend about this yesterday actually. Here's my take on this:

In progressive Calisthenics, you always have to regress things and make them easier to progress. These easier regressions might seem like they're hiding weaknesses because they're easier, but what is really important is that those weaknesses are still worked on the regression.

I don't think a counterweight pistol is hiding, or neglecting mobility. The exercise is basically the same except less hip flexion and ankle flexion. However, those are still being worked on and as long as you're diligent about decreasing weight over time, you'll get better at it.

Now compare that to a Pullup done with straps or a Plank done with an arched back. These might be regressions as well but, in this case, they are neglecting important weaknesses because they aren't strengthening them at all!


The topic of choosing good progressions is pretty interesting to me, so certainly open to hearing thoughts. There ARE many ways to skin a cat but I truly believe some are better than others in a very general sense.

 

[Pavel Macek]

@sizzlefuzz Please check out the recommended reps in your SFB manual and use the progression which allows you to do them. 5-6 singles will very rarely lead to any significant improvement. Continue to work on your mobility to be able to do the pistols without any counter weight or assistance.

 

[Karen Smith]

@sizzlefuzz You did great at the SF bodyweight course. I would love to see a video of your progress since then. I would recommend you do some BW only for higher reps at your currently level (progressions) while continuing to work the mobility drills. Then adding a weight (counter balance one or two times a week for singles is okay and will make you stronger. But the counterbalance won't necessarily fix the missing link you need for BW only. (example if ankles are immobile, then fixing that is key to bodyweight only reps.

Add boots as mention above might allow you to do bodyweight only but is also just another assistance tool (compensation for lack of dorsi flexion) so for you I would not recommend that.

Look forward to seeing your progress - keep up the hard work.

 

[sizzlefuzz]

@sizzlefuzz You did great at the SF bodyweight course. I would love to see a video of your progress since then. I would recommend you do some BW only for higher reps at your currently level (progressions) while continuing to work the mobility drills. Then adding a weight (counter balance one or two times a week for singles is okay and will make you stronger. But the counterbalance won't necessarily fix the missing link you need for BW only. (example if ankles are immobile, then fixing that is key to bodyweight only reps.

Add boots as mention above might allow you to do bodyweight only but is also just another assistance tool (compensation for lack of dorsi flexion) so for you I would not recommend that.

Look forward to seeing your progress - keep up the hard work.

Thanks! I hit some BW reps using my weightlifting shoes recently so I'm using those as a confidence booster. I will take some time off from the counterbalancing and stick to raised-heel work & ACE pistols for the next few weeks.