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Barbell Questions about PTTP

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Ask someone who can’t walk around the block.

For purposes of general health and longevity, research shows low intensity CV exercise such as walking is fine.

But if someone has different goals, walking might not be enough. Marathons require more endurance training than dog walking will provide.

I think Paavo Nurmi (or some equivalent name) walked for six months before started running at all after olympics. So did emil zatopek, in the snow though. Active walking increases your hair veins, that are an essential part of the system for endurance performance.

Veli Kumpuniemi who pulled everlasting EDIT: 372,5 for -90kg ipf (nr is 373kg), 357,5kg -82,5 /:EDIT was a lumber jack and walked a lot in the forest. Hip area and lower back conditioning in uneven terrain.

P.S. he was 46 yo for that national record.
 
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Maffetone advises to raise your HR gently and gradually in order to train ALL heartrate ranges and the corresponding nerval and muscular connections.

Phil Maffetone said:
By slowly increasing your heart rate from resting up to the MAF zone, you have just gently gone through the full spectrum of nerves that, when stimulated, contract important muscle cells, or fibers. The entire process, including the actions of the nerves, muscles, and heart, is controlled by the brain.
from 101 MAF Heart Rate Zones - Dr. Phil Maffetone
... and ...

Phil Maffetone said:
There are many types of easy aerobic exercise you can perform. Some like their workout routines to include more than one aerobic exercise during the course of a week. This can include riding a bike, swimming, aerobic dance or walking. Walking, however, is the easiest and most convenient workout to do. No other routine is better for aerobic fitness.
from Exercise Made Easy: A walking program - Dr. Phil Maffetone

Apart from that, walking is very beneficial soothes your mind and CNS, gently stimulates bones and connective tissues, helps to regulate mood and promotes creativity and problem solving. Many great thinkers were walkers.

...
Phil Maffetone said:
Walking may be the best way to not only prevent the common loss of brain function with aging, but improve it at any age. It helps coordination between the brain and body, making movement more efficient, and improving balance and gait. Walking benefits other parts of the brain too, including those associated with memory, cognition, social function, speech, hearing, behavior and learning.

Every step you take sends messages from each muscle fiber throughout your body via nerves to your brain. This increases the brain’s blood circulation (bringing in oxygen and other nutrients), stimulates the growth of new neurons (brain cells), and improves communication between neurons, even making new pathways between the brain and body. Walking can even increase the size of the brain.
from Walking Right - Dr. Phil Maffetone
 
Interesting discussion. But I wasn't really concerned about walking because I take my dog for at least one brisk 45-50 minute walk a day through a former clay pit. For some this might be an OK form of exercise. But even as a couch potato I have to really push myself (might as well start jogging at that point) to get my heart rate above 120bpm on the steepest slopes.

One of my goals for this year (alongside a double BW deadlift for 5 reps) is to improve my cardio to the point were I can run a decent 3km/2mi time without killing myself.

My original question probably should have looked something like this:
-how much jogging/running can you do before it starts to interfere with strength training.
-is it OK to do this immediately after PTTP or is it better to separate them.

But thanks anyways :)
 
Pavel has commented on a similar question:

Pavel Tsatsouline said:
Here is the rule of thumb of aerobic training before or after strength training. if you are focusing on neural adaptations, do strength work first (or the day before) when you are fresh. If you are focusing on hypertrophy, you can lift after LSD (same or next day) and it is best to avoid LSD (except very easy work) for 48 hours.

As far as I know, easy endurance training after strength training can help with recovery.
 
Easy endurance training means your hr must be under 120-130 level. My max is/was 201 so i used 130 level as my definition. Everything is relative/individual. I have not yet really tried both at the same time.

If you really walk 5 hrs/week you already have loads of cardio work. For me it seems that everything additional will have negative effect on strength. Seems natural that HR will not rise above 120 during walking, slow jog is the next step. Using ski sticks while walking uphill will raise HR if you can bear the shame.

If you want to run "fast"/medium lengths, that is 1-3 mile, 10 km and so on lengths, you will have to train running at speeds that will affect your strength. You will see when your sq/dl starts going downhill, you're doing too much aerobic. What is the running target more accurately? I would regard 18 mins for 3km a decent time, if you can stay under aerobic threshold. If you double the length and time and still stay under you are in a good shape. (Below Aerobic threshold => you have to be able to talk/have conversation while running)

I'm no expert but I would combine them and run easy runs after training. It will probably affect your recovery. Harder runs would have to be done separated.

I have a long term goal of 450kg total and a 4 hour marathon during the same calendar year. I haven't yet started running, and my strength level is not there yet. I don't know if I will ever get there, but one should have goals. And it will be at least two years project for me.

I did have a 470 kg total around 2009-2010 and ran ½marathon @ 1.41 in 2012, probably should have gotten <4 hrs marathon but got sick before race day. At that time I trained around 250 km/month during summer, which is not that much really. My easy jogs were around 11 min/mile at a point where I couldn't dream of squatting 150+kg, at around 75-77kg body weight. Actually In fall 2011 I have run ½mara @ 1.42 while training only 500km before that (and another 500 km during 2010), while easy run would have been around 12 min/mile.
 
Interesting discussion. But I wasn't really concerned about walking because I take my dog for at least one brisk 45-50 minute walk a day through a former clay pit. For some this might be an OK form of exercise. But even as a couch potato I have to really push myself (might as well start jogging at that point) to get my heart rate above 120bpm on the steepest slopes.

One of my goals for this year (alongside a double BW deadlift for 5 reps) is to improve my cardio to the point were I can run a decent 3km/2mi time without killing myself.

My original question probably should have looked something like this:
-how much jogging/running can you do before it starts to interfere with strength training.
-is it OK to do this immediately after PTTP or is it better to separate them.

But thanks anyways :)
This makes things more clear, and I have some recent experience and ongoing experimentation on the topic.

But first, to reiterate, for health purposes, walking is fine. You do not need to hit a certain HR, like 120, and it never needs to feel hard. You dog walking routine is all the aerobic work that you “need.”

But you go on to state a performance goal of a “good” running time, so you “want” more aerobic fitness. That will take some additional work.

RE: Concurrent Training

Interference is certainly possible, but usually overstated. The biggest problem is trying to combine them into one session. But if you separate strength and endurance sessions by a few hours, or on separate days, there is plenty of time to recover and benefit from both. The risk of interference is mostly for the top ends of your ability, as time spent doing one takes time away from the other, limiting development, or worse, overtraining.

As a long time Maffetone devotee, I’ve been leery of strength work because of interference. But this past fall, I decided to test it with an experiment, since I was far enough away from any endurance goals that it wouldn’t matter if things went sideways a bit.

For three months, I strength trained in the gym four days a week using the Easy Strength template. I did DL, dips, chins, ab wheel, and farmer’s walk. I trained aerobic endurance at MAF six days a week, for 6-8 hrs combining cycling and running. I did one long ride of 3-4 hrs, all other sessions were 45-60 min. Occasionally I did the DMPM with a KB for fun. I usually trained strength in the AM, and endurance in the PM.

Results:
My strength went up in the gym, and aerobic fitness improved as measured by regular MAF tests. I was not untrained or detrained, nor was I particularly great shape. But I finished the cycle with the best combination of fitness attributes in a very long time, perhaps ever.

In your case, the dog walking is fine for health, but a running performance goal will require some run training. PTTP is like Easy Strength and a great fit since the sessions are so short. Add in 2-3 run sessions at a different time of day and you should be golden.
 
-how much jogging/running can you do before it starts to interfere with strength training.
A lot. Like...a lot a lot.
-is it OK to do this immediately after PTTP or is it better to separate them.
Depends on the type. Sprints or high intensity intervals work fine after for me. Slow steady state I find work better on different days or if on the same day, separated by a few hours with the jogging/running in the AM and the strength training in the afternoon/evening.
 
Personally, I think anyone training for general fitness and ealth should worry a lot more about having lousy cardiovascular capacity (a lot of powerlifters do, according to my anecdotical experiences) than the potential, suboptimal aspect of combining lifting with cardio in one session.
 
Personally, I think anyone training for general fitness and ealth should worry a lot more about having lousy cardiovascular capacity (a lot of powerlifters do, according to my anecdotical experiences) than the potential, suboptimal aspect of combining lifting with cardio in one session.
Yes, but ...

It is easy for a strength athlete to add activity/training that enhances general health and cardiovascular "capacity" by following the guidelines in the Poliquin article cited above. Around here, many of us follow protocols learned at Strong Endurance. One shouldn't look at cardiovascular health and strength training as an either-or proposition. My recommendation for good health is a focus on strength and the inclusion of strength-friendly endurance training.

Go to a powerlifting meet sometime - you'll see a few folks who look "big and strong but out of shape" but they are increasingly in the minority. You will, however, find a lot of trim, strong people.

-S-
 
you'll see a few folks who look "big and strong but out of shape" but they are increasingly in the minority. You will, however, find a lot of trim, strong people.

That was my exact thought when watching the USAPL Raw Nationals a couple of months ago. A few were big, but most were really not big at all, and relatively low overall weight and body fat, so that fits "trim and strong." However, you don't see many "skinny strong" types (as are common in StrongFirst, who deadlift heavy and are kettlebell-strong) at powerlifting meets. To squat and bench press competitively, more musculature seems to need to be developed.
 
@Anna C, I agree but I think we're talking about two different things. Me, at 146 lbs. - skinny. But me at 165 lbs. wouldn't exactly be "big and strong and but out of shape." I'll also observe that, while "skinny strong" folks may be more common at StrongFirst, I don't feel like there are that many, just perhaps a bit more than the general population. When I've been at SF events, most people fall into what I'd call the well-proportioned category, e.g., what I might be if I gained 15 lbs. :)

-S-
 
When I've been at SF events, most people fall into what I'd call the well-proportioned category, e.g., what I might be if I gained 15 lbs.

True, there are many types. Some seems related to how they train (emphasis on bodyweight/kettlebell vs. barbell/kettlebell... because pretty much everyone in StrongFirst kettlebells ;) ), some to their genetics, some to their body comp (% BF), and some to their programming - i.e. whether they train for hypertrophy and eat to support that.

But we've already got one Aesthetics thread going right now... No need to beat that dead horse anymore. :D
 
Yes, but ...

It is easy for a strength athlete to add activity/training that enhances general health and cardiovascular "capacity" by following the guidelines in the Poliquin article cited above. Around here, many of us follow protocols learned at Strong Endurance. One shouldn't look at cardiovascular health and strength training as an either-or proposition. My recommendation for good health is a focus on strength and the inclusion of strength-friendly endurance training.

Go to a powerlifting meet sometime - you'll see a few folks who look "big and strong but out of shape" but they are increasingly in the minority. You will, however, find a lot of trim, strong people.

-S-

Yes, S&S is for instance excellent in terms of building "useful strength" from my perspective, integrating endurance and mobility with the strength work. I fully agree with Pavel Tsatsouline's statement about strength being a specific skill that can not be taken out of context. Subjectively speaking, I don't find 1RM based strength very interesting if it is not transferable to other settings. For instance, I have previously worked with people whose personal records in both squat and bench press were impressive, but had so terrible endurance that they really struggled to carry semi-heavy objects (furniture) for a distance at a steady pace.

Describing their strength as useless would be narrow minded, as they were obvioulsy strong in one objective sense. Likewise, I obviously understand and respect that carrying furniture up stairs is of little interest for people training towards winning medals in powerlifting or weightlifting. However, my assumption is that the fear of training cardio does more harm than good for most people wanting to be generally fit and strong. I totally agree that it shouldn't be a either or assumpton, but rather two constitutive ingredients in general health and fitness. My "strength preferences" are obviously biased, as I enjoy several acitivites requiring endurance.
 
That was my exact thought when watching the USAPL Raw Nationals a couple of months ago. A few were big, but most were really not big at all, and relatively low overall weight and body fat, so that fits "trim and strong." However, you don't see many "skinny strong" types (as are common in StrongFirst, who deadlift heavy and are kettlebell-strong) at powerlifting meets. To squat and bench press competitively, more musculature seems to need to be developed.

Probably also a combination of weight classes and powerlifting being a competitive sport. A male lifter in the 93kg/205lbs class needs a 692kg/1525lbs total to qualify for Raw Nationals. And there are 4 more weight classes for lighter lifters.

My guess would be that you would see more muscular lifters here on the forum if you would need to be able to press the 48kg KB to sign up :D
 
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Probably also a combination of weight classes and powerlifting being a competitive sport. A male lifter in the 93kg/205lbs class needs a 962kg/1525lbs total to qualify for Raw Nationals. And there are 4 more weight classes for lighter lifters.

My guess would be that you would see more muscular lifters here on the forum if you would need to be able to press the 48kg KB to sign up :D

Where did you get those numbers? To my understanding the qualifying total is 692,5kg.
 
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