Questions about PTTP

Pantrolyx

Level 5 Valued Member
That's great! I've not started formal Buteyko but have been nose breathing exclusively while consciously using less air. Haven't had to mouth breath since doing Viking Warrior Conditioning, everything I do now is within the template and guidelines of A+A and aerobic base building.

Check out Al Ciampa's new online gym, he's doing great things for me and many others..

If you PM Al he'll respond and give you access to browse the whole thing.
Be Well and Strong – A Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body
Interesting stuff, I will surely look into it! (y)
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
I would do both or just heavy 2hsw with heavy snatching, works well for me.
Unilateral and Bilateral Training

There is a slightly different training effect elicited in performing a one hand or two hand movement; there a benefit to each.

As Bret said, "Do both".

Kenny Croxdale
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
According to @kennycro@@aol.com, power development requires a heavier load then speed development.
According to Yuri Verkhoshansky, Not Me

The information that I provide is based on the work of Yuri Verkhoshansky.

A little information for those who might not know who he is. Verkhoshansky is what might be termed "The Modern Day Father of Plyometrics". Verkhoshansky pioneered Plyometric Training in Russia in the 1960's.

Verkhoshansky literally wrote the book on Plyometric Training.

Let look at the specifics of training with Traditional Strength Training movements.

Speed Training

10 to 40%, with approximately 30% being the sweet spot of a 1 Repetition Max (1 RM) is the most effective at developing Speed.

On a side note, that means that the Westside Powerlifting Method, that refers to "Speed Training" isn't "Speed Training", it is actually "Power Training" due to the heavier 1 RM training percentage it uses.

Power Training

48 to 62% of a 1 Repetition Max (1 RM) is the most effective at developing Power. This is the training percentage used in the Westside Powerlifting Method. That means their "Speed Training" is actually "Power Training".

Source: Verkhoshansky's Special Strength and Supertraining.

Olympic Lifts And Other Similar Type Movements

70 - 80% of a 1 Repetition Max produces that greatest amount of Power Output with Olympic Lifts and other similar type movements, like Kettlebell Swings.

With a 1 hand swing, the load is lower yes? I would think it would make the grip and stabilizers more of a limiting
Stabilization

A great point by Philippe.

The greater the stability in preforming a movement the more Force produced.

Your run faster on a harder surface like concrete than on a soft surface like sand. You Squat more weight on a hard surface like concrete than on a BOSU Ball.

If one were to swing hard with a light weight, power would be decreased as you'd have to decelerate the k.b. or it'll fly off into uncharted territory.
Decreased Force Production with Light Swings

Another great point. In swinging a light Kettlebell, less Force is produce in the Swing.

Essentially, you are "Taking your foot off the gas", allowing the Kettlebell momentum to allow it to float higher. If you continue to exert Force through the complete range of the Swing, you going to experience some unpleasant yanking when the Kettlebell metaphorically "Hits The Wall".

That because Kettlebell Swings are a...

Ascending Strength{Power Curve Movement

That means a movement in which the greatest resistance occurs in the bottom part of the movement, less resistance at the top.

Traditional Strength Exercises that have an Ascending Strength Curve are: Squats, Presses, Deadlifts, Leg Press, etc.

The Deceleration of A Movements With Light To Moderate Loads

"Another obstacle when training for an explosive bench press (even at lower percentages of 1 RM) is the deceleration of the bar during the lift. "Research has shown as much as 75% of a movement can be devoted to slowing the bar down." (Flannagan, 2001). Elliot et al. (1989) revealed that during 1-RM bench presses, the bar decelerates for the final 24% of the range of motion. At 81% of 1-RM, the bar deceleration occurs during the final 52% of the range of motion. The accompanying deceleration phases result in significantly decreased motor unit recruitment, velocity of movement, power production and compromises the effectiveness of the exercise." (Berry et. al., 2001)."

"The National Strength and Conditioning Association's Basic Guidelines for the Resistance Training of Athletes states that "performing speed repetitions as fast as possible with light weights (e.g., 30-45% of 1RM) in exercises in which the bar is held on to and must be decelerated at the end of the joint's range of motion (e.g., bench press) to protect the joint does not produce power or speed training but rather teaches the body how to decelerate, or slow down. If the load can be released into the air (i.e., the bar can be let go at the end of the range of motion), the negative effects are eliminated." (Pearson et. al., 2000)" Source: Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Strength & Power, Croxdale/Morris

With that in mind, here are the solutions to...

Ensuring Complete Power Through The Full Range of The Swing or Movement

1) Going Ballistic

Ballistic meaning that your body or an object become airborne.

As you essentially stated, letting the Kettlebell Fly, launching it ("...fly off into uncharted territory.")

2) Accommodating Resisted Swings

Attaching a band to a light to moderately heavy Kettlebell and Swing it.

This provide resistance to the top part of the swing; it not going to float to the top. Resistance is maintained throughout the full range of the Swing, mandating that you continue to exert force.

Craig Marker's Demonstration


3) Heavy Kettlebell Swings

As the research above noted, preforming a movement with a greater percentage of your 1 Repetition Max minimizes the amount of deceleration in the exercise.

a) In a 1 RM Max Bench Press, deceleration occurred in the last 24% of the movement.

b) In performing the Bench Press with 81% of a 1 RM Max Bench Press, 52% of the movement was devoted to deceleration.


Banded and Ballistic Swings

These are the two most effective method that endure you will maximize Force Production throughout the full range of a light to moderate loaded Kettlebell Swing.

most kettlebell swings seem to be around the same speed, regardless of mass.
Kettlebell Load and Speed

The load of the Kettlebell is going to change the Speed of the Swing.

Part of the reason that the Speed of the Kettlebell appears to be the same is due to the percentage of deceleration when performing it with a light or moderate Bell vs a heavy Bell; the heavy Bell force you to maintain acceleration through a greater range of the movement.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Okay, so what I'm getting from all this is that I need to do regular 2h heavy swings along with S&S. The book says about once every 2 weeks, which might be adequate, and the program isn't just about power but about muscular strengthening and 1h swings activate different muscles different from 2h swings, but as with PTTP and NW, there is no limit on other things you can do to add on providing you can handle them, and the books are written with this fact in mind. The S&S book shows and describes lots of people doing 2h swings, "swing quests" etc.

To add to all this, when I was doing S&S in a hacked way a few years back with 100 2h heavy swings instead of 1h lighter swings, I did notice more power for judo. But the tradeoff was not having the anti-twisting strength 1h swings develop. Anti-twist strength is golden, like the same kind of strength you get from the one arm pushup.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
The tasting is in the pudding

Nothing beat practical experience. You need to try it and find out for yourself.

Doing Home Work

Many of your misconception can be remedied by spending more time researching the topic that you have question about.

Kenny Croxdale
From my experience when doing the heavy 2h swings, I can launch my whole power into the movement without being worried about the bell going flying out of my hands (well... at least I can do it to a certain weight, but a weight much higher than I can with 1h swings.)
 

Bauer

Level 6 Valued Member
Do you have the information on McGill's test? I am interested in seeing it.

Al Ciampa performing Kettlebell Swings with a 92kgs/202 lbs.

Al's Kettlebell Swing with 92 kgs is a great demonstration of Power.

Kenny Croxdale
@Kozushi

Here are the two passages referring to power in swings that I had in mind, quoted from S&S:

Pavel said:
An asymmetrical load seriously challenges the stabilizers and increases the recruitment of many muscles. When I swung a 32kg kettlebell two-handed in Prof. Stuart McGill’s lab, my glutes fired up to 80% maximal voluntary isometric contraction (MVC). When I did it one-handed, the recruitment was up to 100%. And the lat contraction jumped from 100% to 150%! In case you are wondering how it is possible to contract a muscle 150%, the max is isometric. In dynamic contractions higher values are possible—plyometrics are a case in point.

The swing on the left (2H overspeed) generates more power. The one on the right (1H) recruits more muscle. Last but not least, the one-arm swing is an exceptional grip-builder. Why would you do two-arm swings at all if the one-arm version is so great? Because two-arm swings generate more power, as proven on the force platform. With reduced stabilization demands, you can really let it rip. Hence, do both types of swings.

Tsatsouline, Pavel. Kettlebell Simple & Sinister . Unknown. Kindle-Version.
And:
Pavel said:
“Use these two elements,” insists the karate sensei—light and shadow, positive and negative. The kettlebell enables us to take shadow training to an entirely new level. F=ma. Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration.

One can generate high force by different combinations of “m” and “a.” ·
High mass and low acceleration—the powerlifts ·
Medium mass and medium acceleration—the Olympic lifts and various jumps ·
Low mass and high acceleration—the kettlebell swing and various throws.

(...)

Enter the kettlebell. Its shape and compact size allow one to safely accelerate it on the way down in swings and snatches—a so-called overspeed eccentric. Our instructors have been clocked swinging a 24kg bell down with almost 10G, making it “weigh” over 500 pounds. This is “virtual force,” but its effects are very real. If I set a 24kg kettlebell on your foot, you will find it annoying. If I drop the same bell on your foot from my chest level, you will need crutches. If I slam the bell down from the same height, you will need a new leg.

(...) Even people whose bodies can no longer tolerate static loads of deadlifts and other heavy lifts are able to safely train with very high forces with shadow swings. For many hard men with high mileage, virtual force is the only way to stay in the game. Small caliber, high velocity. Due to the springiness of our tissues, we can withstand much higher forces if the application is very brief. (...)

Employ overspeed eccentrics or shadow swings only with light kettlebells—30% of your bodyweight or less—and only in two-arm swings. Hike the bell back with all-out acceleration and aggression.

Tsatsouline, Pavel. Kettlebell Simple & Sinister . Unknown. Kindle-Version.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
Here are the two passages referring to power in swings that I had in mind, quoted from S&S:
Thanks for the information. Let take a look at it.

"When I swung a 32kg kettlebell two-handed in Prof. Stuart McGill’s lab, my glutes fired up to 80% maximal voluntary isometric contraction (MVC). When I did it one-handed, the recruitment was up to 100%. And the lat contraction jumped from 100% to 150%!"

Lat Recruitment With One Hand Swing

My speculation would be that going from a two hand swing to a one hand swing with a 32 kg Kettlebell double the load on that Lat being worked.

Glute Recruitment with One Hand Swing

Interesting. Any guessing on my part as on this isn't worth reading.

"...two-arm swings generate more power, as proven on the force platform. "

That reinforce the information that I presented.

"Hence, do both types of swings."

This reinforce Bret's post.

"...a so-called overspeed eccentric. "

The Kettlebell Swing is definitely "Overspeed Training". It allowing you to elicit and develop the Stretch Reflex, something that the Deadlift doesn't do.

Research has demonstrated that up to 18% more Power is produce when the Stretch Reflex is evoked.

"Employ overspeed eccentrics or shadow swings only with light kettlebells—30% of your bodyweight or less—and only in two-arm swings."

"Over Speed Eccentric Kettlebell Swings with 30% of Body Weight"

Al Ciampa Kettlebell's Swings with a 92 kg/202 lbs definitely illustrate that Power can be produced with Heavy Kettlebell Swing that are much greater than 30% of body weight.

Al's 92 kg/202 lb Swing is close to 80% of his body weight (I am not sure of Al's body weight), so it a close, rough estimate.

With that said and based on the Contreras' research data, Power is best developed with Heavy Kettlebell Swings.

Shadow Kettlebell Swings/Accommodating Resistance Training

A Light to Moderate Kettlebell is effective when attaching a Band (Accommodating Resistance Training).

The determinate factor in the selection of a Light or Moderate Kettlebell is the Band Strength.

The See Saw Effect

The See Saw Effect needs to be applied when attaching a Band for Kettlebell Swings.

If you are using a Light/Strong Band, a Moderately Heavy Kettlebell should be used.

If you are using a Moderately Heavy/Strong Band, a Light Kettlebell should be used.

Traditional Strength Training Accommodating Exercises

That also applies for Traditional Strength Training Movements (Squats, Deadlifts, Pressing), as well.

The Band Strength plays a vital role in determining the the Bar Load in these Ascending Strength Movements. Source: Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosive, Croxdale Morris

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
@Kozushi

Here are the two passages referring to power in swings that I had in mind, quoted from S&S:



And:
What I didn't understand even the first time I read the book was why after praising 2h swings so much, Pavel then minimizes them to once every 2 weeks in the program. Honestly, weird. I think 2 weeks is sort of the bench mark for the least frequently you can do an exercise and still make some kind of modicum of progress at it. I do think also that when reading Pavel's books one must keep in mind that his philosophy isn't dictatorial - he presents solid programs but then also solid moves that are not part of the programs. We then can stick with the basic program at its simple form, or add on things. S&S is extremely flexible this way as is PTTP. ROP while not so flexible in terms of adding outside moves and routines has its own intrinsic flexibility and waviness.

Regarding 2h swings in S&S, there is the "wrestling with the kettlebell" where you try to swing the heavy kettlebell 48kg 2h as many times as possible up to 100 times. I forget exactly how often he recommends this, although I think I remember it being something like whenever you don't feel like doing the regular program, or something to that effect.

In any case, I'll be adding in some daily 2h swings with the 48, probably in sets of 10.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
What I didn't understand even the first time I read the book was why after praising 2h swings so much, Pavel then minimizes them to once every 2 weeks in the program. Honestly, weird. I think 2 weeks is sort of the bench mark for the least frequently you can do an exercise and still make some kind of modicum of progress at it. I do think also that when reading Pavel's books one must keep in mind that his philosophy isn't dictatorial - he presents solid programs but then also solid moves that are not part of the programs. We then can stick with the basic program at its simple form, or add on things. S&S is extremely flexible this way as is PTTP. ROP while not so flexible in terms of adding outside moves and routines has its own intrinsic flexibility and waviness.

Regarding 2h swings in S&S, there is the "wrestling with the kettlebell" where you try to swing the heavy kettlebell 48kg 2h as many times as possible up to 100 times. I forget exactly how often he recommends this, although I think I remember it being something like whenever you don't feel like doing the regular program, or something to that effect.
You're mixing some things up there, @Kozushi

The once every 2 weeks is the "Die but Do" non-stop swings. You use a kettlebell lighter than your usual one and use any mix of 1H and 2H swings, just keep swinging until you have to stop. I don't think many people actually do this, but it comes up here and there on the forum as "non-stop swings" or "continuous swings". And you can go beyond 100 swings -- 100 is just mentioned as a nice benchmark.

The "whenever you don't feel like doing the regular program" is the light day option where it recommends doing shadow swings. So yes this is another form of 2H swings that can be worked in from time to time at a non-specific frequency.

I think the program intends for someone to be very competent with 2H swings before moving to almost all 1H swings. And the program has men starting the program swinging 24kg. For those that can't start there with 1H swings, they should work with 2H swings for a while until they can. But people have also had success working up by doing 1H swings with 16kg or other sizes.... although they would probably progress faster/better if they would spend more time doing heavier 2H swings while they practice the lighter 1H swings. I think the program says this, but many don't get it.

All of this is not particularly relevant to this thread... but I think sometimes your remarks can use some clarification added ;)
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
You're mixing some things up there, @Kozushi

The once every 2 weeks is the "Die but Do" non-stop swings. You use a kettlebell lighter than your usual one and use any mix of 1H and 2H swings, just keep swinging until you have to stop. I don't think many people actually do this, but it comes up here and there on the forum as "non-stop swings" or "continuous swings". And you can go beyond 100 swings -- 100 is just mentioned as a nice benchmark.

The "whenever you don't feel like doing the regular program" is the light day option where it recommends doing shadow swings. So yes this is another form of 2H swings that can be worked in from time to time at a non-specific frequency.

I think the program intends for someone to be very competent with 2H swings before moving to almost all 1H swings. And the program has men starting the program swinging 24kg. For those that can't start there with 1H swings, they should work with 2H swings for a while until they can. But people have also had success working up by doing 1H swings with 16kg or other sizes.... although they would probably progress faster/better if they would spend more time doing heavier 2H swings while they practice the lighter 1H swings. I think the program says this, but many don't get it.

All of this is not particularly relevant to this thread... but I think sometimes your remarks can use some clarification added ;)
The book itself isn't very long but it's so chock full of information and depth that it's hard to keep it all straight! Thank you!

With that all clarified, I don't think I'll be committing heresy if I add in some daily sets of heavy 2 handed swings. The "die but do" is the "wrestling with a kettlebell" one, right?
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@Kozushi, it's all good. Your sport is not lifting weights - do what makes you feel better on the mat and in the rest of your life. Experiment with 2h swings to see how they work for you. I am, e.g., some days doing a few sets of 1h swings on normal rests, taking a longer rest, then doing an "as many reps as I can without compromising speed or power" set of heavier, 2h swings, just the one set of 2h. I really like it as a protocol.

-S-
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
With that all clarified, I don't think I'll be committing heresy if I add in some daily sets of heavy 2 handed swings. The "die but do" is the "wrestling with a kettlebell" one, right?
Agreed, all good! And yes, I think those are the same thing, but the book doesn't refer to wrestling with the kettlebell that I recall... maybe you came up with that. :)
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
Agreed, all good! And yes, I think those are the same thing, but the book doesn't refer to wrestling with the kettlebell that I recall... maybe you came up with that. :)
If so that would hardly be the first imaginary thing I've inserted into the book, hahaha! I think what happens is I muddle the book with things I've read online, mostly here, like adding presses into various stages of the TGU: I somehow eventually placed that in the book in my mind but the book only mentions holding pauses at various stages, but it was an article here that suggested doing presses.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
@Kozushi, it's all good. Your sport is not lifting weights - do what makes you feel better on the mat and in the rest of your life. Experiment with 2h swings to see how they work for you. I am, e.g., some days doing a few sets of 1h swings on normal rests, taking a longer rest, then doing an "as many reps as I can without compromising speed or power" set of heavier, 2h swings, just the one set of 2h. I really like it as a protocol.

-S-
I had a thought going on a hike today, which was if the PTTP program covers the whole body in terms of strength, then all that's left is power and cardio, which can both be attained through heavy 2h swings. I have to say I"m very impressed with the results of deadlifts (and the bit of pressing done to counterbalance them.) Even without power production, I've found that increasing my work with deadlifts gives me so much stability and control in judo that power gets a bit less relevant to the equation - technique is more important than power in any case; judo is about delicate balance and clever positioning. Also, for shovelling snow, simply being strong enough as to do deadlift reps with 370lbs means the work isn't very hard.
 

Pantrolyx

Level 5 Valued Member
I had a thought going on a hike today, which was if the PTTP program covers the whole body in terms of strength, then all that's left is power and cardio, which can both be attained through heavy 2h swings. I have to say I"m very impressed with the results of deadlifts (and the bit of pressing done to counterbalance them.) Even without power production, I've found that increasing my work with deadlifts gives me so much stability and control in judo that power gets a bit less relevant to the equation - technique is more important than power in any case; judo is about delicate balance and clever positioning. Also, for shovelling snow, simply being strong enough as to do deadlift reps with 370lbs means the work isn't very hard.
I would assume that power, as far as I understand the term, is a quite prominent aspect when you (assumably:) ) drill throws trips and sweeps quite a lot, as it depends on quick hip movements and weight shifting. Although technique > everything, I would also assume that you train power quite a bit in wrestling/randori, along with the grinding strength and pure speed. Or have I misunderstood the distinctions, in spite of the great information provided in this thread?
 

Bret S.

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I would assume that power, as far as I understand the term, is a quite prominent aspect when you (assumably:) ) drill throws trips and sweeps quite a lot, as it depends on quick hip movements and weight shifting. Although technique > everything, I would also assume that you train power quite a bit in wrestling/randori, along with the grinding strength and pure speed. Or have I misunderstood the distinctions, in spite of the great information provided in this thread?
Speaking from a karate perspective, I believe the power is expressed more than created.
I think judo and wrestling require a steadier or longer duration of the power expression. Though power can be trained somewhat through practicing the arts themselves you can gain more power, faster and more efficiently by training power directly using weights in various forms as tools.
Learning to apply power efficiently is where it's at in fighting or training, a good martial artist is lazy in the sense of not wanting to waste energy, only applying enough power to get the job done, over and over.. the relaxed fighter is not wasting power, he's saving it for when it's needed.
 

Kozushi

Level 7 Valued Member
There is an efect of power in a well executed technique but if you're using power you're not doing the technique efficiently. Now, maybe for a very split second there's power, but mainly you're positioning yourself correctly, which isn't much about power. However, over the 90 minutes of a judo workout you're getting lots of exercise.
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
There is an efect of power in a well executed technique but if you're using power you're not doing the technique efficiently. Now, maybe for a very split second there's power, but mainly you're positioning yourself correctly, which isn't much about power.
Power

As Dr Fred Hatfield stated, "In the world of sports, Power is the King. This especially true with Judo.

Kettlebell Swing

This is a Power Movement. It needs to be performed with Power on each repetition.

Secondly, Kettlbell Swing are a "Pulling Movement". Judo is primarily a sport that is dominated by "Pulling Movements".

Thus, Kettlebells Swings preformed with Power should be a staple movement for Judo for optimal training.

Knowledge

As I previously noted, you need to invest more time in examining the research of training. Some of your post, like this one, provide misinformation.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
Though power can be trained somewhat through practicing the arts themselves you can gain more power, faster and more efficiently by training power directly using weights in various forms as tools.
"Training power directly using weights"

Yes, that is why every school has a Weight Room.

The main issue is the the majority of high school coaches have a very limited knowledge in regard on Strength Training for sports (Limit Strength, Power, Speed, Strength Endurance Training).

Some of my job involves working with high school coaches. The majority have a very limited knowledge on how to write and execute an effective training program.

The good news is that just about anything and everything works with novice lifters (high school kids).

Kenny Croxdale
 
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