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Randomised PTTP cycles

captain slow

Level 5 Valued Member
I’ve been on PTTP for a while now and my gains are tapering as expected. I generally aim to add 2% per cycle to the DL & MP then I deload to 80% and start again. I’ve swapped cycle lengths and wave patterns a couple of times to keep things fresh.

As I get to end to the end of each cycle the fatigue is getting more noticeable, again probably to be expected as the load increase. I was thinking of reorganising the workouts into a random order to see if that could reduce the fatigue. I’ve heard Pavel talk several times about the waviness of the load and larger than normal jumps- Plan strong seems to be built around that principle

As an example instead of a cycle like 80%, 82%, 84%……….100%, 102%, it might look like 92%, 80%, 86%, 94,…………102%. The work in each cycle would be the same just reordered.

Alternatively I could add extra rest days or jump to Reload or Plan strong (that I’ve used before) but I just like the frequency and convenience of PTTP.

TIA for any comments
 
@captain slow

If you would like to try waviness, you could try some PlanStrong style plans that are available for free.

Here is a DL plan by Fabio:

And this 5TRM back squat plan is supposed to work with presses as well:

Fabio's plans are great, so I guess this should work just fine!
 
@captain slow

If you would like to try waviness, you could try some PlanStrong style plans that are available for free.

Here is a DL plan by Fabio:

And this 5TRM back squat plan is supposed to work with presses as well:

Fabio's plans are great, so I guess this should work just fine!
Thanks Bauer,

I’ve actually got a custom Plan strong program- DL,MP & weighted pull ups from about 5 years ago, I’m pretty’s sure I could tailor that to my current 1RMs . I really enjoyed doing it but some of the workouts are long.

I’ll certainly take a look at the squat program you mention. Currently though I’m really enjoying the pace and tempo of PTTP and would just like to extend it as long as possible.

Reload is probably the obvious next step, even if I spread it over 5 days a week. 2 press days, 2 pull days and 1 SV day
 
Thanks Bauer,

I’ve actually got a custom Plan strong program- DL,MP & weighted pull ups from about 5 years ago, I’m pretty’s sure I could tailor that to my current 1RMs . I really enjoyed doing it but some of the workouts are long.

I’ll certainly take a look at the squat program you mention. Currently though I’m really enjoying the pace and tempo of PTTP and would just like to extend it as long as possible.

Reload is probably the obvious next step, even if I spread it over 5 days a week. 2 press days, 2 pull days and 1 SV day
Btw, the SFHW plan for deadlifts is pretty low monthly volume, less than PTTP with max. 29 reps (on average 15 reps, as it is 3x per week).

If time is an issue you could train 6x per week and alternate DL and pressing days.
--

What you are describing sounds quite a bit like Even Easier Strength:

Anyway, besides going up and down in intensity you could also think about light adjustments in volume, for example with a step cycle approch. In that case I would just go up and down in volume at least 20% from day to day (for example, choosing between 6, 8, 10, 12, 15 reps).

But maybe you want to stick to the PTTP rep pattern. In that case you are actually free to go by feel and to go up and down in ewight as you wish. Pavel talks about it in PTTP, so maybe just try this as the next step before trying more advanced and complicated programming.
 
As I get to end to the end of each cycle the fatigue is getting more noticeable, again probably to be expected as the load increase.
Fatigue

This is a sign that you are not recovering.

I was thinking of reorganising the workouts into a random order to see if that could reduce the fatigue.
Random Order

Changing the order of the exercise while maintaining the same Training Load/Intensity is not going to reduce the fatigue.

Recovery is needed.

waviness of the load.

Waviness

This may be what your mean...

It is called undulating periodization.
,,,"A type of training where volume and intensity go up and down, either weekly or daily, within the training period."
The effectiveness of this approach is based on how well a program is written and followed.

The fluctuation between work loads and intensity provide short term gains.

I prefer the good old linear periodization.

Periodization Training

Periodization Training is a Cyclical p+Progressive l+Loading Plan.

1) Linear Periodization Training

This is an effective plan.

"...Adding weight (load) to a given exercise each training session until that 4- or 8-week block is completed."

Blocks

1685092659194.png


This method is often broken down into Strength Block; which focus on one type of Strength such as...

a) General Perparedness Preparation

b) Hypertrophy Training

c) Maximum Strength Training

4) Power Training

The benefit of these Training Blocks is it allows an indvididualn totally focus one particular Strength.

This immersion and total focus accelerates gain in the particular Strength being Trained.

2) Undulating Periodization Training

This appears to be what you may mean by "Waiveness", Undulating.

3) Non-Linear Periodization Training

"Nonlinear periodization changes in training volume and intensity are made more frequently."

That means a Training Cycle is changed around every three weeks.

I am a proponent of Conjugated Non-Linear Periodization Training,

Conjugated meaning different type of Strength are Trained in the same Cycle; such as Maximum Strength, Power, and Hypertrophy.

larger than normal jumps-

Large Jumps

1) Warm Ups

Many individual turn Warm Up into a full blown workout; performing too many Repetition and taking small Weight Jumps.

Doing so, ensure their Top Set (the most productive) is less than it could be or should be.

The key is to perform the least amount of work (Repetition and Weight) for your Warm Up.

This ensure have more Strength for you Top Set.

2) Weekly Progressive Loading Increases

A New Perioidization Training Program should start with a Light, Easy Load after finishing another Periodizating Training Program.

Doing so, elicits...

Active Recovery

The lighter load in a Movement increase blood flow to the muscles; delivering nutritent and eliminated metabolic waste from the pervious Periodization Cycle.

Recover is where gain in Strength and Size, dependent your Training Program, occurs. Recovery defuses fatigue.

Fatigue is is a sign of OverReaching (short term OverTraining).

Continuing to push it once OverReaching has occured lead to OverTraining.

OverReaching

The final week of a Periodization Training Cycle needs to be pushed to the limit or near to it.

Then a New Training Cycle is begun that allows for Recovery.

OverTraining

This occurs when you continue to push your Training in a OverReached, fatigue state.

Your gain stall and eventually you go backwards.

Wound Healing

This medical term applies to Strength Training.

The greater the trauma to the body, the longer it takes to recover. This is what OverTraining is.

The less tramua to the body, the quicker it recoverys. This is what OverReaching is.
 
Fatigue

This is a sign that you are not recovering.


Random Order

Changing the order of the exercise while maintaining the same Training Load/Intensity is not going to reduce the fatigue.

Recovery is needed.



Waviness

This may be what your mean...


,,,"A type of training where volume and intensity go up and down, either weekly or daily, within the training period."
The effectiveness of this approach is based on how well a program is written and followed.

The fluctuation between work loads and intensity provide short term gains.



Periodization Training

Periodization Training is a Cyclical p+Progressive l+Loading Plan.

1) Linear Periodization Training

This is an effective plan.

"...Adding weight (load) to a given exercise each training session until that 4- or 8-week block is completed."

Blocks

View attachment 21481


This method is often broken down into Strength Block; which focus on one type of Strength such as...

a) General Perparedness Preparation

b) Hypertrophy Training

c) Maximum Strength Training

4) Power Training

The benefit of these Training Blocks is it allows an indvididualn totally focus one particular Strength.

This immersion and total focus accelerates gain in the particular Strength being Trained.

2) Undulating Periodization Training

This appears to be what you may mean by "Waiveness", Undulating.

3) Non-Linear Periodization Training

"Nonlinear periodization changes in training volume and intensity are made more frequently."

That means a Training Cycle is changed around every three weeks.

I am a proponent of Conjugated Non-Linear Periodization Training,

Conjugated meaning different type of Strength are Trained in the same Cycle; such as Maximum Strength, Power, and Hypertrophy.



Large Jumps

1) Warm Ups

Many individual turn Warm Up into a full blown workout; performing too many Repetition and taking small Weight Jumps.

Doing so, ensure their Top Set (the most productive) is less than it could be or should be.

The key is to perform the least amount of work (Repetition and Weight) for your Warm Up.

This ensure have more Strength for you Top Set.

2) Weekly Progressive Loading Increases

A New Perioidization Training Program should start with a Light, Easy Load after finishing another Periodizating Training Program.

Doing so, elicits...

Active Recovery

The lighter load in a Movement increase blood flow to the muscles; delivering nutritent and eliminated metabolic waste from the pervious Periodization Cycle.

Recover is where gain in Strength and Size, dependent your Training Program, occurs. Recovery defuses fatigue.

Fatigue is is a sign of OverReaching (short term OverTraining).

Continuing to push it once OverReaching has occured lead to OverTraining.

OverReaching

The final week of a Periodization Training Cycle needs to be pushed to the limit or near to it.

Then a New Training Cycle is begun that allows for Recovery.

OverTraining

This occurs when you continue to push your Training in a OverReached, fatigue state.

Your gain stall and eventually you go backwards.

Wound Healing

This medical term applies to Strength Training.

The greater the trauma to the body, the longer it takes to recover. This is what OverTraining is.

The less tramua to the body, the quicker it recoverys. This is what OverReaching is.
Thanks for all that info Kenny,


“Changing the order of the exercise while maintaining the same Training Load/Intensity is not going to reduce the fatigue.

Recovery is needed.”

regarding this point I’m not quite sure I agree. If the cycle is say 12 sessions I could probably repeat the first 6 indefinitely, it is the last 6- 92%, 94%……100%,102% etc where the fatigue accumulate. By interspersing them with the lighter 80% range workouts that would automatically incorporate more recovery potential.

I agree at some point the combined weekly/ monthly load would just get too much and a new schedule would be required but I’m not sure I’m quite at that level yet.

l’ll probably play with it for a couple of cycles and see how it goes
 
Thanks to everyone that has commented. I hadn’t seen Fabio’s series on the 1-5 TRM progression before

I know Reload is based on a weekly LP so it could be interesting to alternate that and an EV program ever couple of months going forward
 
it is the last 6- 92%, 94%……100%,102% etc where the fatigue accumulate. By interspersing them with the lighter 80% range workouts that would automatically incorporate more recovery potential.
OverReaching

I am not completely clear on what you mean.

Taking Large Weight Jumps

Based on your information, it appears that you burning yourself out with the smaller jumps.

If so, taking taking Larger Weight Jumps will elicit a more effective training effect.

a new schedule would be required but I’m not sure I’m quite at that level yet.

Muscle Fatigue

When Muscle Fatigue occurs, that is you sign to back off.

Continuing in a Fatigued State just digs you hole deeper.
 
The thing from the book that it sounds like you haven’t tried yet is running PTTP with a specialized variety deadlift. Run a few cycles with deficit deads and see how that effects your deadlift.
 
The thing from the book that it sounds like you haven’t tried yet is running PTTP with a specialized variety deadlift. Run a few cycles with deficit deads and see how that effects your deadlift.
That’s definitely an option. I think the main reason for the SV sessions is to add more work at a lower intensity I.e. RPE 6. But also just mixing in a couple of light conventional days could work, or 1 light and 1 SV

Ive got a plate in my knee so I probably wouldn’t run deficits but Sumo or pause could certainly be alternatives
 
That’s definitely an option. I think the main reason for the SV sessions is to add more work at a lower intensity I.e. RPE 6. But also just mixing in a couple of light conventional days could work, or 1 light and 1 SV

Ive got a plate in my knee so I probably wouldn’t run deficits but Sumo or pause could certainly be alternatives
Nah, you just replace the deadlift with sumo or something for a while. It’s pretty common in powerlifting. For instance if you are doing a Gallagher style program, when you stop making progress on your squat, you switch out the squat with a box squat as your main lift and progress that. When you start peaking for a meet you switch the box squat for your meet squat to work the movement again.

Same thing with Westside style training.
 
I’ve been on PTTP for a while now and my gains are tapering as expected. I generally aim to add 2% per cycle to the DL & MP then I deload to 80% and start again. I’ve swapped cycle lengths and wave patterns a couple of times to keep things fresh.

As I get to end to the end of each cycle the fatigue is getting more noticeable, again probably to be expected as the load increase. I was thinking of reorganising the workouts into a random order to see if that could reduce the fatigue. I’ve heard Pavel talk several times about the waviness of the load and larger than normal jumps- Plan strong seems to be built around that principle

As an example instead of a cycle like 80%, 82%, 84%……….100%, 102%, it might look like 92%, 80%, 86%, 94,…………102%. The work in each cycle would be the same just reordered.

Alternatively I could add extra rest days or jump to Reload or Plan strong (that I’ve used before) but I just like the frequency and convenience of PTTP.

TIA for any comments

Depends on what kind of fatigue we are talking about.

CNS fatigue, to make it easier lets treat it mainly as muscle damage (among other things), think mainly volume and exercise selection. It can last up to several days after a training session. It will stop high threshold motor neurons from activation which makes you weaker. This affects the entire system.

Peripheral Fatigue, something that acts locally in the muscle that stop muscle fibers from contracting, think lactate, accumulation of calcium ions and phosfate-stuff. It will send feedback to the CNS (to limit contractions) and actually stop/limit/hinder contractions locally in the muscle. It is mostly short lived gone after a day. This affects the local muscle.

They are linked and they are more involved and complex if going into detail... but that's going to deep in a forum post.

Early in a the cycle, you will probably not tax the system and can lift more often, it will not stimulate the system to grow due to it being to low intensity. Later in the cycle all lifts will probably stimulate the system to grow but increase CNS fatigue and need better recovery strategies (read that as rest)
 
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