Other/Mixed Regarding Planning Mesocycles for Training

[Ben Strong]

Multi-pronged question here... I am curious how many folks here utilize mesocycles when planning out their future training. I first learned about this concept when reading Ross Edgley's "The World's Fittest Book" and have started implementing it myself this year. I get the sense that a large percentage of the Strong First community do this as well. I find this concept really helpful because in the past I have always tried to pursue too many rabbits at once which got me nowhere. This allows me to dial in and focus on developing one attribute at a time. For those that do this, I am wondering about some of the higher level details of how you implement it. What types of cycles do you utilize (hypertrophy, speed, endurance, etc). How long do you typically stick with each cycle? How many cycles is too many before you start to lose the benefits gained from previous cycles?

I thought I would include an example for critique. I have roughly planned out my next year of training and would love to hear thoughts on how I might improve it. This is designed simply for general physical fitness with no specific goals in mind. I am a hobbyist in BJJ but I only train about 2 days a week. I am using various programs to accomplish each goal attribute so the length of the cycle is primarily controlled by this. A couple of notes... Firstly, I am using various programs to accomplish each goal attribute so the length of the cycle is primarily controlled by this. Secondly, I wasn't exactly sure how to categorize The Giant so I called it Power Endurance. Finally, the programs are subject to change each run through of this Macrocycle. I'm open to ideas about better programs for each goal but primarily I am more interested in thoughts regarding the layout of the mesocycles/macrocycle. Thanks for your input!

Mesocycle​	Length (Weeks)​	Program Utilized​
Power Endurance​	12​	Giant 1.0, 1.1, & 1.2​
Fat Loss​	6​	KB Hard: Oh Row You Don’t​
Endurance Base​	8​	Tactical Barbell: BB + Fighter​
Hypertrophy​	8​	Built Strong Minimalist​
Maximal Strength​	24​	KB Strong: Ph. 1 and Ph. 2​

 

[renegadenate]

The time you're partitioning for each attribute seems a bit off.

Your Power Endurance cycle seems too long as you can build a lot of power endurance in 6-8 weeks.

You'll find that 6 weeks of fat loss is far too short (you'll most likely need 8-16 weeks depending on your goals at the time).

For endurance, you'll probably want 6-12 weeks (and I'm not sure how Tactical Barbell: BB + Fighter is endurance).

I would suggest two 8-week cycles of BuiltStrong at two different times of the year (spring/fall).

Devoting 24 weeks to max strength will most likely lead to burnout. You would be better off breaking it up into 3-4 8-week cycles spread throughout the year.

Typically, you would want something like this:

Endurance Base: 8 weeks
Max Strength: 8 weeks
Fat Loss: 8 weeks
Hypertrophy: 8 weeks
Power Endurance: 6 weeks
Max Strength: 8 weeks
Hypertrophy: 8 weeks
Max Strength (or other): 6 weeks

That's 52 weeks of training and it only encompasses 1-2 phases of the areas you want to target throughout the year.

Ideally, you would combine things that work well together rather than keeping them separate:

Max Strength & Q&D (strength & power): 8 weeks
Hypertrophy & A+A (muscle and endurance): 8 weeks
Fat Loss: 8 weeks
Max Strength & Q&D (strength & power): 8 weeks
Hypertrophy & A+A (muscle and endurance): 8 weeks
Fat Loss: 8 weeks

 

[james_1127]

I follow a template from Joel Jameson from his book... Endurance for 8 weeks -> strength training for 8 weeks -> glycolytic-ish power (usually S&S or Q&D) -> then pure power endurance (A+A)

Essentially gives me this layout

Plan 060/snatch walking for 8 weeks
Reloaded or built strong minimalist or IC for 8 weeks
Q&D or S&S 8 weeks
A+A 8 weeks

 

[Ben Strong]

Thanks for the critique @renegadenate. You make a lot of good points that give me a good bit to think about.

As far as the time I have partitioned goes it's really just being driven by the length of the programs that I am following. But I think you lay out some really good suggestions for time periods to shoot for based on the various attributes. I think I will try to revise it a bit so that I hit those targets a bit better.

Particularly your point about including BSM more than once in the Macrocycle resonates with me and I think I will try to find a way to cycle that through more frequently.

I like your idea of combining complimentary attribute together but personally I feel that might be a bit much for me to accomplish. I don't have super great recovery at the moment (new dad) so that might be a little beyond my abilities for now.

 

[Ben Strong]

I follow a template from Joel Jameson from his book... Endurance for 8 weeks -> strength training for 8 weeks -> glycolytic-ish power (usually S&S or Q&D) -> then pure power endurance (A+A)

Essentially gives me this layout

Plan 060/snatch walking for 8 weeks
Reloaded or built strong minimalist or IC for 8 weeks
Q&D or S&S 8 weeks
A+A 8 weeks

Thanks for ideas James, these replies are making me consider that I might still be overcomplicating things in my quest to simplify. I am thinking I need to hit fewer attributes more frequently similarly to your strategy.

 

[james_1127]

Thanks for ideas James, these replies are making me consider that I might still be overcomplicating things in my quest to simplify. I am thinking I need to hit fewer attributes more frequently similarly to your strategy.

Joel's book is great, it's an "MMA" book but he applies it to everyone... He lays out numerous strategies for each type of phase... I just apply the principals to SF programs

 

[offwidth]

@Ben Strong

Good suggestions have been offered thus far.

Please allow me to offer another perspective. You mention that you have no precise goals other than general fitness. Also you are a new dad (congratulations), which comes with it all sorts of challenging and fun stuff. I think that getting into the minutiae of periodization might be a bit much. I don‘t mean to be an S&S zealot, but I think if a fellow reaches simple, let alone sinister they are going to have ticked off a lot of things on your list, and with a very ‘simple’ and low maintenance approach.

Now… with that being said… I have had good success using periodization in the following format:
Recovery | Transition | Base Building | Specific | Taper | Peak
These flow into each other very nicely, however they are focused on a uniform target. The above mentioned phases comprised of activities that build: Strength, Power, Aerobic and Anaerobic Capacity / Endurance, and Muscular Endurance

One or two such cycles per year depending upon goals.

But this was back in the day when I was pretty serious about training, and training for some very specific and serious goals.

I‘m sure that whatever you come up with will get you the results you are looking for.

 

[silveraw]

these replies are making me consider that I might still be overcomplicating things in my quest to simplify.

If agree with that it’s a common problem. If I had those goals, I’d just do concurrent training the whole year and adjust calories for hypertrophy and fat loss. Maybe drop it down to twice a week during a base building phase once or twice a year. And don’t forget conditioning work.

it would look like:
Monday: max press, 3/8-15 squat, 3/3 fast deads
Tuesday sprints (Q&D or whatever you like)
Wednesday: max deadlift, 3/8-15 press, 3/3 fast squats
Thursday: sprints
Friday: max squat, 3/8-15 deadlift, 3/3 fast presses
Saturday: ruck or sprint

Rest and repeat next week


But I’m very cognizant of my tendency to want to do all the programs, which I learned the hard way is sure to provide a bunch of mediocre progress over a long period of time. So might over simplify a bit.

 

[Ben Strong]

Please allow me to offer another perspective. You mention that you have no precise goals other than general fitness. Also you are a new dad (congratulations), which comes with it all sorts of challenging and fun stuff. I think that getting into the minutiae of periodization might be a bit much. I don‘t mean to be an S&S zealot, but I think if a fellow reaches simple, let alone sinister they are going to have ticked off a lot of things on your list, and with a very ‘simple’ and low maintenance approach.

Thanks for this suggestion. I would agree that reaching simple would tick a lot of boxes. That's where I started with my KB journey however I found it was really challenging for me to stick with it long term. Personally I just find that it's easier for me to be more consistent if I have some variety in my strength training regime. Maybe I will have to revisit the simple goal at some point in the future.

However, I will say I do find S&S sessions to be great when I just don't have the time or energy for anything else. I kind of use them as a bare minimum training tool for weeks I can't get anything other work in. Also have used them in the past when I am training BJJ frequently and don't have much leftover energy to recover from barbell work etc.

 

[Ben Strong]

But I’m very cognizant of my tendency to want to do all the programs, which I learned the hard way is sure to provide a bunch of mediocre progress over a long period of time. So might over simplify a bit.

I hear you, I definitely have the same tendency. I have been on a journey to narrow down my focus as best I can.

If agree with that it’s a common problem. If I had those goals, I’d just do concurrent training the whole year and adjust calories for hypertrophy and fat loss. Maybe drop it down to twice a week during a base building phase once or twice a year. And don’t forget conditioning work.

it would look like:
Monday: max press, 3/8-15 squat, 3/3 fast deads
Tuesday sprints (Q&D or whatever you like)
Wednesday: max deadlift, 3/8-15 press, 3/3 fast squats
Thursday: sprints
Friday: max squat, 3/8-15 deadlift, 3/3 fast presses
Saturday: ruck or sprint

Rest and repeat next week

This is generally how I have been ordering my weekly workouts, trying to hit 3 days of resistance training (currently the Giant but have used Tacticall Barbell plans in the previously), 2 days of LISS cardio, then 1 day of sprints on the air bike. If I'm feeling like I'm overdoing it I'll drop the sprints on the basis that hard BJJ rounds loosely fall into that category

 

[Pete L]

Regrettably I stopped training when the kids were very young so I admire your fortitude.
Personally I have found setting a goal has helped me focus on completing programmes.
A half bodyweight press is a long way off for me, but setting myself a goal of pressing the next bell size up has kept me honest.
For example if you have too much weight gain that pushes the % of bodyweight target further away .
So a bit of hypertrophy to support the increasing absolute strength followed by some fat loss to improve the relative strength.
I don't know either Kettlebell Hard nor Tactical Barbell but your plan looks good to me.
One option is to split the Giant into its 4 week blocks and pepper it across the year.
I've run Strong! for an odd period, say 9 weeks, and BTS for just 4 weeks while running up to a holiday with the family.
You need to factor in big events in any annual plan.
Plus, don't forget you'll most likely end up modifying the plan as the year progresses.

 

[Ben Strong]

Thanks all for the excellent advice! Taking these thoughts into consideration I have revised my mesocycles a bit. In an effort to simplify things further I decided to focus only on three major cycles; hypertrophy followed by max strength followed by fat loss or endurance. I will am thinking I will try to program in some power sessions as a supplemental goal during certain blocks. My goal with the endurance block is to complete a base building cycle once or twice a year. I also shortened the lengths so that I can repeat blocks with a greater frequency throughout the year.

Follow up question.... What is the general consensus on the order of hypertrophy and strength cycles. I feel like I generally see hypertrophy programmed prior to strength but is there any benefit to doing the opposite?

Thanks again!

Mesocycle​	Length (Weeks)​	Program Utilized​
Hypertrophy	8	Built Strong Minimalist
Maximal Strength	8	KB STRONG Ph. 1
Fat Loss	8	KB Hard: Oh Row You Don’t
Hypertrophy	8	Built Strong Minimalist
Maximal Strength	8	TBD
Endurance	8	Tactical Barbell II: Base Building

 

[LoneRider]

I follow a template from Joel Jameson from his book... Endurance for 8 weeks -> strength training for 8 weeks -> glycolytic-ish power (usually S&S or Q&D) -> then pure power endurance (A+A)

Essentially gives me this layout

Plan 060/snatch walking for 8 weeks
Reloaded or built strong minimalist or IC for 8 weeks
Q&D or S&S 8 weeks
A+A 8 weeks

What's the name of the book?

On another note, I've noticed cycles from another S&C site I followed in previous years ran 7-8 week cycles aimed at Strength, Endurance, and Work Capacity.

 

[Anna C]

What's the name of the book?

Ultimate MMA Conditioning. An amazing book with a hefty price.

 

[james_1127]

What's the name of the book?

On another note, I've noticed cycles from another S&C site I followed in previous years ran 7-8 week cycles aimed at Strength, Endurance, and Work Capacity.

Get a scribd.com account ($9.99 a month) and the book is on there

Anna already listed the title... It's a great book, it's not rigid on methods so I follow the principals and apply SF programs to it

 

[watchnerd]

You may want to take seasonality into consideration.

For example I (and others) do hypertrophy training in the winter because:

a) Tend to naturally eat more when weather gets darker/colder + holiday season, hitting the surplus calories needed for hypertrophy
b) Might as well try to turn more of that uptick in calories into muscle rather than chub

I also do more of my endurance work in the spring/summer because:

a) Good weather is an opportunity to get out of the gym and do endurance / cardio activities outside, which is beneficial on multiple levels
b) Competitive outdoor sports seasons in spring/summer

Seasonality also tends to put a cap on how long a meso-cycle lasts.

 

[watchnerd]

Mesocycle​	Length (Weeks)​	Program Utilized​
Power Endurance​	12​	Giant 1.0, 1.1, & 1.2​
Fat Loss​	6​	KB Hard: Oh Row You Don’t​
Endurance Base​	8​	Tactical Barbell: BB + Fighter​
Hypertrophy​	8​	Built Strong Minimalist​
Maximal Strength​	24​	KB Strong: Ph. 1 and Ph. 2​

One other note:

This is going to be impossible to get done over the course of 1 year.

Because it's 58 weeks of work.

 

[Ben Strong]

Regrettably I stopped training when the kids were very young so I admire your fortitude.

Thank you, although I'm not sure I would describe it as fortitude. It's more that I selfishly like to schedule in some time for myself throughout the week when I am able. Usually after he goes to bed for the night.

Personally I have found setting a goal has helped me focus on completing programmes.
A half bodyweight press is a long way off for me, but setting myself a goal of pressing the next bell size up has kept me honest.
For example if you have too much weight gain that pushes the % of bodyweight target further away .
So a bit of hypertrophy to support the increasing absolute strength followed by some fat loss to improve the relative strength.

This makes sense. At the moment I would say my focus is on generally increasing my total strength output. I used to be able to lift quite a lot of weight in my football days (American football that is) and in my 20's I simply allowed all that muscle to atrophy. A quantifiable goal for this would be that I would like to be able to double clean and press my 32KG bells that mock me from the corner of the living room. This is definitely a long term goal though as my current 5RM is 2x24 kgs. Secondary to this goal is increasing my useable strength and work capacity for BJJ practice. Side note: I am not restricted to weight class as I'm in the ultra heavy category so bring on the hypertrophy.

You need to factor in big events in any annual plan.
Plus, don't forget you'll most likely end up modifying the plan as the year progresses.

Indeed, I found that logging my workout in an excel file has been really valuable. This allows me to project out in advance and plan out the week-to-week training pretty easily. If something comes up and I miss a day I'll just bump the whole column down a row. Also this method makes it easy to list out vacations and other events that might impact training.

 

[Ben Strong]

You may want to take seasonality into consideration.

For example I (and others) do hypertrophy training in the winter because:

a) Tend to naturally eat more when weather gets darker/colder + holiday season, hitting the surplus calories needed for hypertrophy
b) Might as well try to turn more of that uptick in calories into muscle rather than chub

I also do more of my endurance work in the spring/summer because:

a) Good weather is an opportunity to get out of the gym and do endurance / cardio activities outside, which is beneficial on multiple levels
b) Competitive outdoor sports seasons in spring/summer

Seasonality also tends to put a cap on how long a meso-cycle lasts.

You make a good point! I don't particularly have a season since I'm just a hobbyist but I do tend to train BJJ more frequently in the winter months than in the summer. Our gym air conditioning doesn't keep up very well and the heat and humidity in VA are brutal in late summer. So I tend to lift a bit more in the summer and early fall.

 

[Ben Strong]

One other note:

This is going to be impossible to get done over the course of 1 year.

Because it's 58 weeks of work.

I guess I should have written that I had planned out "approximately 1 year" of training.

Thanks for keeping me honest.