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Kettlebell Rep scheme on Q&D

mvikred

Level 2 Valued Member
Hi

I've incorporated Q&D into my workouts and do it roughly thrice a week. Currently I have access to a bell that is one bell lighter than what Q&D book would suggest as the ideal weight (using a 24kg but 28kg is the right size for my work). So I have modified the workouts by increasing the reps, i.e. rather than 100, I've increased the max to 160 and rather than 40 being the lowest I have increased it to 80. If you ask me why, I just feel 80 reps is what feels like a good light workout and 160 reps is pretty much close to when I start losing power (200 reps is when I think I would lose power using the 24kg bell).

Does this modification impact the outcomes of the program or result in a different outcome?

There are many other threads on Q&D but I did not want to muddle it with this thinking and if this question has already been discussed, I request the moderator to close the post.

PS - searching about this topic on the forum did not result answers that I was looking for (or my search parameters were off to get the to the right thread)
 

Bauer

Level 7 Valued Member
Check the last chapter on variability. It mentions something like 15/2 and 7/4 for lighter bells (so basically up to 150 reps). You could alternate it with your version. If you like it, it will give you some benefit, albeit maybe not the benefits of power training, that Q&D is designed to give you. You will be your own guinea pig.

Or: use the original rep scheme and work on accelerating the bell on the way down.
Or: follow a different protocol, possibly from Geoff Neupert
 

Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
@Bauer already posted this while I was typing, but:
There is a section near the end of the book on varying the load. It suggests doing some sessions with a lighter weight and more reps per set, such as 15/2 instead of 10/2, some sessions with your standard 10/2 weight, and some sessions with a heavier weight and fewer reps per set, such as 5/2.
(so basically up to 150 reps).
For the 15/2 rep scheme, I usually just do two series and call it a day, but occasionally do four (two on each arm for snatches), so 60 or 120 reps total, but usually just 60.

For the 5/2 rep scheme, I do more series to make sessions 40, 60, 80, or 100 reps.
 

GaryT

Level 2 Valued Member
Hi

I've incorporated Q&D into my workouts and do it roughly thrice a week. Currently I have access to a bell that is one bell lighter than what Q&D book would suggest as the ideal weight (using a 24kg but 28kg is the right size for my work). So I have modified the workouts by increasing the reps, i.e. rather than 100, I've increased the max to 160 and rather than 40 being the lowest I have increased it to 80. If you ask me why, I just feel 80 reps is what feels like a good light workout and 160 reps is pretty much close to when I start losing power (200 reps is when I think I would lose power using the 24kg bell).

Does this modification impact the outcomes of the program or result in a different outcome?

There are many other threads on Q&D but I did not want to muddle it with this thinking and if this question has already been discussed, I request the moderator to close the post.

PS - searching about this topic on the forum did not result answers that I was looking for (or my search parameters were off to get the to the right thread)
Could use a light band as presented in the book. Also, this is what I did before buying a new bell to adapt and overcome.9195A710-3DC0-43B7-A931-8DF87B10B8FF.jpeg
 

mvikred

Level 2 Valued Member
Thanks for the responses .. and by the looks of what I am doing, maybe I can change it to A+A rather than a Q+D (if my understanding is correct).
 

Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
by the looks of what I am doing, maybe I can change it to A+A rather than a Q+D (if my understanding is correct).
A+A would not use a lighter bell than Q&D, and might be heavier, especially for swings.

For example, my current Q&D bell for 044, 10/2 snatches is 28kg. I would never go down to 24kg for A+A snatches. I use 28 or 32.
 
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mvikred

Level 2 Valued Member
A+A would not use a lighter bell than Q&D, and might be heavier, especially for swings.

For example, my current Q&D bell for 044, 10/2 snatches is 28kg. I would never go down to 24kg for A+A snatches. I use 28 or 32.
Pardon my ignorance but can you help me understand why you would use only a heavier bell?
 

Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
Pardon my ignorance but can you help me understand why you would use only a heavier bell?
Sure. Fewer reps per set + generous rest + heavier bell = more power. All else being equal, a heavier bell requires more power. The height of every snatch is the same, and the time for a rep doesn't vary much, even with a purposeful overspeed eccentric. So the mass of the bell has the biggest influence on power.

That's the goal of A+A. Make each set as high power as possible, recover relatively fully, and accumulate substantial volume. It's a way to accumulate a lot of volume AT A HIGH POWER LEVEL with a (relatively) small recovery cost.
 
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mvikred

Level 2 Valued Member
Sure. Fewer reps per set + generous rest + heavier bell = more power. All else being equal, a heavier bell requires more power. The height of every snatch is the same, and the time for rep doesn't vary much, even with a purposeful overspeed eccentric. So the mass of the bell has the biggest influence on power.

That's the goal of A+A. Make each set as high power as possible, recover relatively fully, and accumulate substantial volume. It's a way to accumulate a lot of volume AT A HIGH POWER LEVEL with a (relatively) small recovery cost.
Thanks .. that makes sense. Then is the only difference between Q&D and A+A is the rest between sets? Q&D is 5/4 and rest for 1 (or 2 mins) and the prescribed sets for the day, while A+A can be OTM or every 75 seconds and more number of sets that way?
 

Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
Then is the only difference between Q&D and A+A is the rest between sets? Q&D is 5/4 and rest for 1 (or 2 mins) and the prescribed sets for the day, while A+A can be OTM or every 75 seconds and more number of sets that way?
I never use the 5/4 rep scheme, but that's a set of 5 every 30 seconds, and then a longer rest. The timing is fixed and the total volume is limited.

A+A never goes as fast as 4 sets in a little over 1:30. The rest is always generous to recover relatively fully, so the overall pace and level of effort is relaxed. Personally, I never go as fast as OTM. If I'm using a clock for A+A, I set a very generous rest interval that seems way too long at the beginning of a session, so it will still be reasonably generous at the end of a long session. And you don't have to use a clock for A+A at all; you can just go by feel. I kind of like using a clock because it keeps me from getting impatient at the beginning and resting too little when I am fresh, but it also keeps me focused and on track so I don't get distracted and end up resting longer than I need either. So the timing for A+A is both more relaxed and more flexible.

And the session length for A+A is typically longer. 20 repeats is the about the minimum I'd ever do, and I've gone up to sessions of as much as 64 repeats of single 28kg snatches and 2x28kg cleans. But most of my sessions are 40 repeats or fewer.
 

james_1127

Level 5 Valued Member
Typically with A+A You want to use a 1:5 or 1:6 work:rest ratio with heavy weight that forces you to be maximally explosive

With a lighter bell I would recommend doing sprint sets for higher periods of time and with longer rest... example is snatch for 30 seconds (around 12-14 reps) every 3 min, for swings it could be swing for 20 seconds every 2min etc (those 2 time periods allow for around 12ish reps)- remember that you're using a pretty fast pace so the acid build up is pretty high

That gives you a 1:6 work rest ratio but allows you to train hard enough with a light bell, you could wave the volume btw 3-5 series still
 

mvikred

Level 2 Valued Member
I never use the 5/4 rep scheme, but that's a set of 5 every 30 seconds, and then a longer rest. The timing is fixed and the total volume is limited.

A+A never goes as fast as 4 sets in a little over 1:30. The rest is always generous to recover relatively fully, so the overall pace and level of effort is relaxed. Personally, I never go as fast as OTM. If I'm using a clock for A+A, I set a very generous rest interval that seems way too long at the beginning of a session, so it will still be reasonably generous at the end of a long session. And you don't have to use a clock for A+A at all; you can just go by feel. I kind of like using a clock because it keeps me from getting impatient at the beginning and resting too little when I am fresh, but it also keeps me focused and on track so I don't get distracted and end up resting longer than I need either. So the timing for A+A is both more relaxed and more flexible.

And the session length for A+A is typically longer. 20 repeats is the about the minimum I'd ever do, and I've gone up to sessions of as much as 64 repeats of single 28kg snatches and 2x28kg cleans. But most of my sessions are 40 repeats or fewer.
Wonderful. This helps a lot. And how would you assess the rep scheme for this? Where do you start? Use a bell that I can do 5 powerful reps/snatches? or can it also be lower? If I am listening to you, I see that the following are the variables you can tweak - reps, exercise type, rest. From what I heard, rest needs to be more so we avoid any lactic acid build up, but that can be very different for different people, so I wonder how we can assess a baseline to work with (I would assume you can suggest the talk test or feel based rest periods to begin with and later put in a regimented time?). Reg. reps, I heard some mention 3, some 5, or even 7 at times. However, 5 seems to be the most common number I keep hearing regarding this. Reg. exercise type, it has to be an explosive movement - snatches, double cleans, etc. I wonder if jerks can also fit into this style.
 

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
And how would you assess the rep scheme for this
3-5 reps is the most recommended range since the goal is to stay as far away from glycolysis as you can for these purposes
Where do you start? Use a bell that I can do 5 powerful reps/snatches? or can it also be lower?
That would be a great size bell. Not sure if you're asking whether the weight could be lower or the rep range could be lower. But with enough rest you can get an Alactic workout with more reps and a lighter bell. As long lactate is not accumulating. That's just much much much less likely to be the case at 20 second effort than 5 or 6 second effort.
Keep it short and sweet.
wonder how we can assess a baseline to work with
For rest periods of you want a timer, I would advise trying something in the range of 3-5 minutes. ATP CP should be topped off ready for the next repeat. I've gotten long rests and high volume days from @Harald Motz recommendation.
Breathe nasally only. If there's urgency to take the next breath, then rest more before you start you next set. If the urgency is gone, then proceed to your next set.
 

mvikred

Level 2 Valued Member
I tried 30 sets of 5 snatches (15 sets each arm) with a 24kg KB and I quite enjoyed the workout. Didn’t feel burnt out but felt like I had a good workout. I did not use a timer and instead relied upon how I felt. So didn’t really push the pace. But it took me around 30 odd minutes to get through the workout. I’ll probably keep this as one of my variety day workouts.
 

Adachi

Level 6 Valued Member
I tried 30 sets of 5 snatches (15 sets each arm) with a 24kg KB and I quite enjoyed the workout. Didn’t feel burnt out but felt like I had a good workout. I did not use a timer and instead relied upon how I felt. So didn’t really push the pace. But it took me around 30 odd minutes to get through the workout. I’ll probably keep this as one of my variety day workouts.
Great work!
 
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