Kettlebell Reps and rest period

[freizl]

According to the interview Pavel had with Tim Ferriss and Joe Ragon, the most effective way to train strength and hypertrophy is less than 5 reps, long rest period and do many sets. (correct me wrong)
But the simple & sinister practice suggest for 10 reps.
Does that sound contraction or anything I missed.

Thanks.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

According to the interview Pavel had with Tim Ferriss and Joe Ragon, the most effective way to train strength and hypertrophy is less than 5 reps, long rest period and do many sets. (correct me wrong)
But the simple & sinister practice suggest for 10 reps.
Does that sound contraction or anything I missed.

Thanks.

He has explained it before. S&S is not a pure strength program, it is designed as a minimalist way to hit many physical traits, including conditioning.

For pure strength, he has not wavered that 5’s are best for your practice sessions over the long haul.

 

[John K]

According to the interview Pavel had with Tim Ferriss and Joe Ragon, the most effective way to train strength and hypertrophy is less than 5 reps, long rest period and do many sets. (correct me wrong)
But the simple & sinister practice suggest for 10 reps.
Does that sound contraction or anything I missed.

Thanks.

Not a contradiction. Although you likely will get stronger and might see muscle growth, it is not a "most effective training method" for getting bigger and stronger.

 

[Xcal]

I *feel* and *believe* that S&S is a minimal starting program to get strong. Once I are strong, then I are ready to investigate something like Q&D and the other low-rep high recovery training. What does strong mean? if you don't know then you're not strong S&S with the 32kg is my 'strong goal' then I will revisit my understanding of how strong I are.

(sorry, I got Timberland's "the way I R" and "I R Baboon" in my head)

 

[Pete L]

According to the interview Pavel had with Tim Ferriss and Joe Ragon, the most effective way to train strength and hypertrophy is less than 5 reps, long rest period and do many sets. (correct me wrong)
But the simple & sinister practice suggest for 10 reps.
Does that sound contraction or anything I missed.

Thanks.

I believe he is referring to "grinds", like squat and deadlift.
Ballistics are double the reps.
Ref Q&D

 

[Pavel.Kosenkov]

I have asked a similar question. There is 1 or 2 sentences about it in the book v2. I am not sure about the first one.
In short - S&S tries to cover as much ground as possible. For an average person - like me, for example, - 10x10 swings is a sweet spot. It is a conscious compromise there. The context was not strength, but A+A protocol.
There are variations of S&S practice where swinns are done for 5 reps. And - nobody stops you from doing that, just bump up the sets to 20.

 

[Don Fairbanks]

According to the interview Pavel had with Tim Ferriss and Joe Ragon, the most effective way to train strength and hypertrophy is less than 5 reps, long rest period and do many sets. (correct me wrong)
But the simple & sinister practice suggest for 10 reps.
Does that sound contraction or anything I missed.

Thanks.

1-5 reps, 2-5+ minutes rest for strength. Hypertrophy , 6-30+ reps, :30- :60 rest. Appropriate % 1RM needed in both cases.
S&S is not a pure strength program.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

the most effective way to train strength and hypertrophy is less than 5 reps, long rest period and do many sets.

Training For Strength

1) Heavy Load

Working up to load of 85% and higher of your 1 Repetition Max.

2) Low Repetition of 1-5 Per Set

This OverLoads the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

Maxumum Strength, Power and Speed reside in the Phosphagen Energy System, ATP.

ATP is vital for Maximum Force Proction. It is dramatically depleted in around 10 second.

Once ATP is depleted, Maximum Force Production drop like a rock due. Once that occurs, you are no longer training the Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber.

This is one of the reasons for keeping the Repetition Low.

3) Long Rest Periods Between Sets

ATP Muscle Restoration Between Set occurs...

a) Around 50% with a 30 Second Rest Period.

b) Around 79% with a 45 Second Rest Period.

c) Around 100% with a Rest Period of 3 minutes or longer.

Greater Force Production is produced when ATP Muscle Restoration occurs.

The Strength Training Percentages
Maximum Strength, Power and Speed utilize the same Repetition.

What differs is the Training Percentage used.

1) Maximum Strength Training is with 85% or higher of your 1 Repetition Max.

2) Traditional Strength Sets for Power Training

a) Traditional Strength Exercise is around 46-62% of 1 Repetition Max.

b) Power Movement

Olmpic Movements use Trainng Percentages of between 70-80% of 1 Repetition Max.

Other Power Movement are Kettlebell Swings, Trap Bar Jumps (essentially an Olympic Low or High Pull),etc.

Hypertrophy Training

The Traditional Hypertrophy-Bodybuilding Protocol revolves around...

1) Moderate to High Repetition of 8 or more Per Set.

2) Light To Moderate Loads of 60-80% of 1 Repetition Max.

3) Short Rest Periods of around 60-90 Seconds.

Decades of Anecdotal Data from Bodybuilders has demonstrated it works, as well as Reseach Data.

Heavier Load-Longer Rest Periods

With that said, the use of Heavier Load with Longer Rest Periods have shown to be effective with Hyperterophy Training.

One of the benefits of this approach for Strength Athletes is that Strength better maintained.

Another method that appear be effective with increasing Muscle Mass while increasing Strength is...

Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training

Dr Jonathan Oliver's reseach found that Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training allowed Atheletics to increase muscle mass while improving Strength.

The issue with Traditional Hypertrophy-Bodybuilding Training is there is an increase in muscle mass at the expense of Strength.

Suggest Reading

Below are two good articles...

10 Reasons Bodybuilders Are Bigger Than Powerlifters

10 Reasons Bodybuilders Are Bigger Than Powerlifters

They both lifts weights. They both train hard. They both use drugs at the pro levels. So why are bodybuilders more jacked than powerlifters?

www.t-nation.com

From 0 to 100: Know Your Percentages!

From 0 to 100: Know Your Percentages!

Each training percentage, from zero to 100% of your 1RM, has a distinct effect on speed, power, and hypertrophy. Here’s how to use that info wisely.

www.t-nation.com

 

[Pavel.Kosenkov]

Edited: there was no added value to the thread, my bad.

 

[Steve Freides]

According to the interview Pavel had with Tim Ferriss and Joe Ragon, the most effective way to train strength and hypertrophy is less than 5 reps, long rest period and do many sets. (correct me wrong)
But the simple & sinister practice suggest for 10 reps.
Does that sound contraction or anything I missed.

Thanks.

At StrongFirst, we train strength with "grinds" we generally practice for 5 and fewer reps, and we train kettlebell ballistics mostly in sets of 10. Some of those ballistics, when done with a barbell and heavier weights, they're are done for 3 and fewer reps by Olympic athletes as a rule.

There is no contradiction, but you can't make the guidelines simpler beyond a certain point because the same rep range won't apply to all kinds of training.

-S-

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

According to the interview Pavel had with Tim Ferriss and Joe Ragon, the most effective way to train strength and hypertrophy is less than 5 reps, long rest period and do many sets. (correct me wrong)
But the simple & sinister practice suggest for 10 reps.
Does that sound contraction or anything I missed.

Thanks.

10 reps for things like swings is the power equivalent of sets of five for grinds ie., presses, deadlift, squats. You have it right. 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps with 3-5 minutes of rest for grinds. For swings or snatch anywhere from 30seconds to 3 minutes of rest inbetween or just guided by the talk test. Repeat a set of ten when you can do so powerfully and without fatigue.

 

[Joel the Savage]

Without going into details and different classifications:
Strength is a neurological phenomenon. Hypertrophy is a long term adaptation in demands placed upon the tissue. I can make you stronger in 30 seconds, if we are talking about bigger biceps, lets check if it worked in 6months.

If we go out on a vodkarace tonight, my strength levels tomorrow will be pretty low but my bicep size will remain the same.

The 1-3 reps for strength. 8-12 for size is missleading even though somewhat correct, let me explain

Hypertrophy in humans seem to be driven by the intensity of the contraction.
A 1RM (as in not possible to lift it 2times) weight will give you enough intensity for the muscle to make long term hypertrophic changes. Lets call the contractions that stimulated growth for "stimulating repetitions". A 1RM lift is 1 stimulating rep.
A 5RM (as in not possible to lift it 6 times) will give you 5 stimulating reps.
A 8RM will give you 5 stimulating reps.
A 20RM will give you 5 stimulating reps.
30RM will give you 5 stimulating reps. Above 30RM that it is to low intensity to stimulate the muscles.

In total you want to aim for 25 stimulating reps for the target muscle.
If you really really use your true 5RM in say for instance the deadlifts you will not be able to rest and do a few more sets of 5reps. In a real world scenario it would probably look like 5-3-1-1-0, in total 10 stimulating reps in 4 sets.
If you would do it the "bodybuilding" way (all the way to failure) you would do 12-8-7 which would give you 15 stimulating reps.

The above is muscle physiology, not opinion. Chris Beardsley have an excellent book on the subject (which goes into much more detail than my short version above). It is pretty easy to pick up. Brad Schoenfeld has a book on it as well. Both recommended.

On a personal note: A sensible method if a complex movement like the deadlifts is trained would be to leave 1 or 2 reps in reserve and going closer to failure (or actually to failure) in less complex exercises.

5x5 with 8minutes of rest in between is great, but man it will take forever in the gym. For most of us 45min in the gym and more bodybuilding style reps/sets/rest is a better fit.

Edit: Chris Beardsley has an excellent blogpost on it:
Reply in other thread

 

[renegadenate]

According to the interview Pavel had with Tim Ferriss and Joe Ragon, the most effective way to train strength and hypertrophy is less than 5 reps, long rest period and do many sets. (correct me wrong)
But the simple & sinister practice suggest for 10 reps.
Does that sound contraction or anything I missed.

Thanks.

The simple explanation that Pavel has given (see The Quick and The Dead book) is that heavy 5's and fast 10's are utliized for strength (and muscle mass when rest periods are compressed).

Heavy weights for lower reps (5's).

Explosive lifts for 10's (and 5's for less muscle or A+A).

It's not a contradiction. It's based on the type of exercise being used (strength or power).

Also remember that Pavel said in the Rogan interview that you can lift heavy or fast. Those are the options.