Kettlebell Resistance/strength training + S&S

[Im out]

So my training would include:
Kettlebell (S&S, presses, cleans and snatches)
Bodyweight (chin-ups/pull-ups, push-ups, dips, walking lunges, *pistols leg raises and bridges)
Barbell squats

That is alot.

I tried doing so much all in one workout until I collapsed.

You should do what you want to do, honestly. Then you will see you cannot do all of it. At least not at once.

Perhaps block training will suit you well. And perhaps dropping S&S.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

I reckon it would be worth considering performing alternate cycles of S&S and barbell work to get the best results from either.

I would recommend 8-12 weeks of S&S, supplemented with some bodyweight work if you feel the need (pistol squats and pull-ups would fill the 'gaps' nicely, as long as the volume is moderate) then 8-12 weeks of barbell lifting (deadlift, squat, bench/other press), perhaps with some lighter weight high-rep KB swings during the barbell cycle for cardio/endurance.

That way, you'll be making progress in both areas in the long-term and will be less likely to overtrain or burn out.

 

[candelas]

@Shawn90 I'm not trying to do all this in one single workout.

My template would be as follows:

Monday S&S + Barbell Squats + Dips
Wednesday M. Press + Chin-ups OR Pull-ups + Cleans.
Friday S&S + barbell Squats
Saturday Push-ups + Rows + snatch practice (A+A style).

Do you think is too much?

@Chrisdavisjr

I see your point of performing alternate cycles of S&S and barbell. I'm just trying to mix it up adding more kettlebell (press,clean and snatch), some calisthenic and just one barbell lift, in this case squats.

thanks for your replies.

 

[Harald Motz]

I reckon it would be worth considering performing alternate cycles of S&S and barbell work to get the best results from either.

Everytime I am "on sas" only, the end of the day I sometimes think I could...but the next morning when on sas actually I feel, thus know, yesterday was enough.

I would recommend 8-12 weeks of S&S, supplemented with some bodyweight work if you feel the need (pistol squats and pull-ups would fill the 'gaps' nicely, as long as the volume is moderate) then 8-12 weeks of barbell lifting (deadlift, squat, bench/other press), perhaps with some lighter weight high-rep KB swings during the barbell cycle for cardio/endurance.

Very good considerations in my book

Doing S&S just as it is written is a koan one can only do through.

 

[candelas]

Doing S&S just as it is written is a koan one can only do through.

Can you please explain that sentence? I don't get it.

 

[Harald Motz]

what is a koan? I don't know. It is a zen riddle one can grit ones teeth to dust, literally. As zen is doing more than thinking...just do and ask again.
I know, I know not much. Simple, easy, who knows.

 

[Im out]

@candelas
I perfecly understood what you ment.

Your template looks good. I suspect your mindset is a bit like a bodybuilders. Just try it for some months and see if it suits you ?

My experience with weightlifting is that 48 hours of rest often if not most of the time is not sufficient. I suspect you will plateau after about 3 weeks.

Just like you I crave to clean/press snatch and do calisthenics aswell. But Im taking a different path.

 

[ali]

Everytime I am "on sas" only, the end of the day I sometimes think I could...but the next morning when on sas actually I feel, thus know, yesterday was enough.

Hitting the nail right on the head with his zen hammer. Wonderful.

 

[candelas]

@candelas don't get me wrong: I do not want to be some kind of training nazi. Of course you can also use an alternative template.

No no, I really appreciate your advise. You all know better than me. So you make me think and it is hard to make a decision.
If we only had one way...

 

[candelas]

@Shawn90 You are probably right.

OK then, let's see what the options are.

First I have to set my goals.
I want ot work with kettlebells

1.- I have the more sensible option of S&S 4-6 times a week with the goal of reaching 'Simple' standard.
Adding some pull ups, mid-section and mobility work. Not much of these. The goal is 'Simple'.

2.- I can start the ROP.
3 days of press with swing on H and M days and snatch on light day, if I'm not mistaken.

3.- What if I want to gain some mass?
Double kettlebell work. Total Tension Kettlebell Complex for example? 3 days a week, pretty straighforward.
I can do it with double 16.

To make things easier for you all, let's say my goal is to gain muscle working with kettlebells.

I know, first I should own 'Simple' or do the ROP before working with doubles. I'm just asking if it can be done in order to pack on some muscle.

Thanks in advance

 

[apa]

@candelas Think of reaching Simple as a stepping stone that will build you a powerful foundation before you add more.

With S&S Simple standard you will:
-Learn good form that will protect you from injuries
-Gain Muscle
-Get a solid base for the other KB moves
-Get a solid base for Barbell lifts
etc.

Once you have reached Simple you can do RoP (Rite of Passage) which will give you:
-A strong Press
-Good Snatch technique
-Variety days where you can focus on Barbell Squats
-Pullups and Presses paired together are wonderful for Strength and Muscle
-A solid foundation and strength to tackle Double KB work

In short: Think long-term, reap the benefits that follow and by the time you are finished you will have the strength, ability and wisdom to create your own individual program tailored for YOU.

Here are some links that are great and in my humble opinion, must-reads:
Things Are Going So Well, Help Me Screw It Up
Things Are Going So Well, Help Me Screw It Up, Part 2
Keep in mind I'm not a professional. Good luck and have fun!

 

[Im out]

@Shawn90 You are probably right.

OK then, let's see what the options are.

First I have to set my goals.
I want ot work with kettlebells

1.- I have the more sensible option of S&S 4-6 times a week with the goal of reaching 'Simple' standard.
Adding some pull ups, mid-section and mobility work. Not much of these. The goal is 'Simple'.

2.- I can start the ROP.
3 days of press with swing on H and M days and snatch on light day, if I'm not mistaken.

3.- What if I want to gain some mass?
Double kettlebell work. Total Tension Kettlebell Complex for example? 3 days a week, pretty straighforward.
I can do it with double 16.

To make things easier for you all, let's say my goal is to gain muscle working with kettlebells.

I know, first I should own 'Simple' or do the ROP before working with doubles. I'm just asking if it can be done in order to pack on some muscle.

Thanks in advance

1. I used to do pull ups and farmercarries/suitcase walks along with "S&S" at some point I stopped doing those and sticked with Swings and Bent Presses. Still my mid-section and lats are being hammered.. along with the rest.

2. I've read plenty about ROP and most if not all report surprising increase in muscle and strength, especially in the shoulders.
3. With strength at some point comes mass. But if you prioritize mass, stick with barbbells and start moving serious weight in the compound biggies.

To make things easier for you all, let's say my goal is to gain muscle working with kettlebells.

Just do it
You don't have to own Simple before starting ROP. But owning Simple at forehand probably enables one to do snatches with 24k opposed to starting out with 16kg first.

I've only been doing 'S&S' for 10 weeks now, before that I used the Convict Conditioning approach, and before that I lifted dumbbells & barbbells only for about 10 years. The impact those 10 weeks of doing those swings and bent presses ( i dislike getups ) is unheard of.
- I can only speak for myself of course, but doing S&S turns a ***dam* heavy *ss job into active recovery.
- It enabled me to lift so much heavier (reallife ''strange' objects) than before.
- It improved my ability to use full body power, my level of english is too low to explain this. * Imagine pushing your car. Lets say there are objects alot heavier than the car. Before S&S I could not move those. After a few weeks I moved them by pushing, not just a bit, and certainly not easily. But they went from A to B without stopping, and the distance between A and B was about 30/40m (say 115 feet)
- THAT in my book is FUNCTIONAL TRAINING. And the first What The Hell effect I experienced. And the Simple goal is just a Program Minimum ??

I am dying to OWN the Rite of Passage, and after ROP I intend to complete Return of the Kettlebell. A hypertrophy program. But S&S will not build strength only, it will increase a little muscle aswell and make one better at everything. The ROP will not just build strength and 'conditioning' it will increase muscle and lower bodyfat, with proper nutrition and correct execution of the program and exercises. I haven't touched it yet, but this is what I must conclude after reading so many stories about the program.

There are 2 major things you should understand.
1. the kettlebell cannot compete with barbbells when it comes to build muscle. The kettlebell makes Strong, much Stronger
2. The swing & Get Up are both full body exercises. ROP is full body too. You won't need much more when doing those programs by the book.

I hope you find this helpful to simplify things for yourself.

I'd like to add my personal objectives.
1 100x1hsw 32kg in 5 minutes + 10 x 40kg bent presses (easily) which is SaS except for BtP ofc.
2. Complete the ROP, press 50% bw (32kg) & 200x 24kg sn in 10 minutes. maybe do ROP with 40kg too.
3. Finally ROTK (double KB) for even more strength AND muscle
- Will take years to complete no. 2 but it will be worth the effort.
Edit: During ROP i will do pull ups as described in CC, also adding pistol and oapu on variety days.

Its so much more enjoyable to keep life simple as can be

 

[Antti]

Forgive me for repeating myself but I think your original plans were very, very good. So good that I wouldn't recommend to change them.

S&S is a mighty good program. Lots of people love it and recommend it heartily. However, it is not the universal panacea. You seem to have goals that are best achieved with a more versatile program. For example, if you're after hypertrophy, nothing hits that goal as well as barbell back squats. The same goes for leg development.

You started the discussion by wanting to train both barbell squats and S&S. Next time you want to work your whole body and especially work on your skinny legs. Next time it becomes clear that you want to do a whole lot of exercises, but, still your goal is overall health or fitness.

Forgive me for saying this out loud but it seems to me you've not really thought out what is right for you. Nothing wrong with that if it is so. It's just so that the thread was maybe started on the wrong foot, so to say, and that the recommendations should be looked at in a different light.

I think you should just make up your mind, ask the question again and make a commitment for two or three months. Pick a good program and follow it for that time period. After that period pick a new program to follow.

Most of all I think it's best you pick up a modality of training, not of exercise. Something where you you develop yourself and advance in the practice. It is bound to bring you good things in the future.

 

[Steve A]

Candelas, as somebody older than you, who has lifted for a real long time, who dealt with being too skinny, please accept the following as intended kindly.

You are wanting to do too many things. Pick a physical goal that is most important to you. Programs are not goals, they are tactics to help you reach goals. Pick your primary physical goal (one!) and choose tactics to get there.

If you want to gain muscle mass, be advised that because of your age, your ceiling is getting lower. At your age if that is your primary goal, keep this perspective. If you were 10 - 20 years younger, you would make your best progress if you limited yourself to two or three big compounds, two or three times a week. Also you are not strong enough to be building so much variety into your programs. Get variety over a longer time scale, not over a week.

I agree with Antti that your best program was your first one. I don't think it is too much and neither does Pavel according to this The Cost of Adaptation . If hypertrophy si your goal, especially in the legs, squat. If gaining mass overall is your priority, add the chin-ups as the back muscles are the biggest in the upper body, and they will make your spine feel better. If on top of that you do swings and get ups you will be just fine.

Now if you have a primary goal that is different than the mass, that's fine, same thinking process holds. Programs and exercise are tools, not goals. What is it you most want to accomplish? Define that, then pick the best tool to get there.

 

[candelas]

You are wanting to do too many things. Pick a physical goal that is most important to you. Programs are not goals, they are tactics to help you reach goals. Pick your primary physical goal (one!) and choose tactics to get there.

I think your analysis is spot on. In my opinion there's not much else to say.

I need to pick a physical goal, keep it simple,and try to have a solid and strong foundations of the basics.

Thanks a lot for your advise.

Thanks everyone else.

 

[ali]

. Get variety over a longer time scale, not over a week.

That's great advice. There's been some great advice and contributions to this thread. One of the many lessons in S&S is instilling a disciplined and consistent approach to training. There is great physical benefit of course but feeling and doing the thing sets you up nicely for understanding your adaptive process....what you can handle and how it all affects you. And thus easier to identify what you want to do versus what you need to do. Good luck.

 

[jef]

@jef
My goal? Overall fitness. It should be overall health.
My current level at squats? I used to do 3 x 5 with 80 kg but I started practicing with kettlebells and stopped doing barbell squats. So let's say I'm starting again.
I'm working on the hypertrophy range 3-4 x 10 with 50/60 kg.

The big lifts 3 times a week + S&S twice a week.
By the big lifts you mean?
Deadlift, Squat, Row, Military press and Bench press?

It sounds good. I think it also suit my goals. What are my goals? That question again.

...
@jef The big lifts 3 times a week + S&S twice a week would be great as well, taking it easy with the lifts I guess.

@candelas
I was away this weekend (Flexible steel level 2. Awesome!), and did not have the opportunity to see your post yet.

You are not my student: we did not spend one hour discussing about your goals, your history, your schedule, your access to equipment, etc. So please discard any suggestion that does not fit any of those.
Of what I read, I feel (so I might be wrong), that you want to gain size, while staying healthy.

What follows is not advice, but example of what could be.
At 62kg and 1,75m, I also think you could gain some weight. To compare, I am not big but out-weight you by almost 10 kg at 1.71 (70kg on average - it varies a bit) and I am not fat. There is no magic formula for ideal weight. I just happen to think that too little is worse than a bit too much.

1. Squats are tricky. It is too easy to do it wrong. Please either see a SFL or video your squat. I train a lot in commercial gyms and I almost NEVER saw a proper squat.

2. One possibility: a classic linear progression program for a few weeks.
No predetermined duration. It might be 12 weeks, it might be 40. Use linear progression as long as you can. Squat every time (great signal for the body to grow), 3 sets of 5. Start conservatively (50% of what you can. 40x5x3), and add weight every time you hit 3x5. How much weight? It depends, it is highly individual and training-dependent, so no "one size fit all" answer on internet.
Add "upper body" exercise. I like alternating bench and press (Starting strength model, from Mark Rippetoe), 3 sets of 5. Same principle: start conservatively, add weight every time.
Add deadlift, once a week or every two sessions at first. again, same principle.
Don't do rows. Almost nobody does it properly, and you don't need them yet.
Eat properly. More than you would like.
Rest appropriately.
Don't be afraid to add some (some, not much) fat. It will go away easily later.

4. Mid-fourties. "Take it easy"
I hate this expression for "middle-age" people. I had a conversation with my student JM (48, squats three times a week, kyte surfs almost every week-end, is professionally very busy, has a family). He mentionned a 46 year old who walk like an old man and said that "you have to take it easy at my age, you will see". JM comment : "If I start thinking like that, I'm done".
At our relatively low levels, no session is really hard. We can push it. Being smart and knowing when to back off is good. Using age as an excuse not to work is not.

5. Recovery is the variable
For people over 40, it is the limiting factor. When you are 20, you can party all night, not sleep, go for an exam, and party again the next evening (no, no, I never did it ). When you are 40+, you just can't. I like the Strong medicine analogy of the stress cup. Know when you are going to overfill it. Easy to say, harder to do.
See how your training goes and adapt it to match recovery. You may:
- add a day of recovery (training every third day)
- include a light day when the weight start to be challenging (linear progression on Monday and Friday, and a light training on Wednesday).

6. Adding S&S?
If you treat it as a mobility session, yes. Light getup are awesome for movement, getting tight and align everything properly. But it should not be taxing. Do it lighter than you want. Be gentle on swings so that it does not take away from recovery.
You want to do more S&S? Then stop all barbell training, do S&S by the book, hit simple, and reconsider.

If you want something more appropriate for your specific case, do not hesitate to contact me directly. There is a limit of effectiveness of program design in a forum, and I think we reached it.

 

[candelas]

@jef I really really appreciate your help. Thanks for taking the time to provide me with such a good piece of advise.

I'll stick to kettlebells (that's why I'm in the kettlbell forum). I'll spend some months of whatever it takes and then I can change to barbell (Starting strength). I was doing this before I started doing kettlebells.
If you don't mind, I'll contact you directly during the course of my training.

I have two things in mind.

1.- Total Tension Kettlebell Complex based training.
I have read somewhere in StrongFirst (do not remember the article now) about the following program:
1 cycle of TTKC= 6 weeks - 1 week for deload - 2 weeks S&S.
Total 9 weeks. I can try two of these to see how it goes.

Train Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, alternating press and squat pyramids:

Monday—Press pyramid
Wednesday—Squat pyramid
Friday—Press pyramid

Monday—Squat pyramid
Wednesday—Press pyramid
Friday—Squat pyramid

For more info on TTKC.
Total Tension Kettlebell Complex

I like this because it has Clean,Press, Squat and Row. I'll train 3 days a week, so I guess I can rest enough.

On press days you Swing. On squat days you Snatch. I'll do it A+A style.

2.- S&S by the book and forget about anything else until I hit 'Simple'.
I guess this one will be the preferred option by many of you.

I think I'll try number 1. If it too much I'll try number 2.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

 

[candelas]

That's great advice. There's been some great advice and contributions to this thread

Absolutely agree.

 

[jef]

I am not familiar with TTKC, so I cannot really comment.

My thoughts: pick one program, stick to it.
The best program is the one you (want to) follow. Go for it!