Kettlebell Respond to Anti-Kettlebell Article
- Thread starter Beau Sutton
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Riley O'Neill
Level 3 Valued Member
The author does not bring up any specific programs with kettlebells, just a few vague movements. You can do something wrong with anything. Likewise the author also makes contradictions with the statement "Training should be non-specific." and then a few paragraphs later "Effective training must involve specialization." Likewise the author points out errors in lifting kettlebells as a reason why you should not use a kettlebell compared to why you should not make the error with the statement "Kettlebells can force too much wrist extension. They feel awkward especially for pushing exercises." Really? They never feel awkward for me, my wrists always feel fine, and I never extend my wrist. In his Turkish Get Up Article he goes into further detail with "The wrist can extend too much. It may feel tough to keep the force directed through your palm. This not only can cause wrist pain but the poor transfer of force harms performance." That isn't doing the TGU, that is doing the TGU wrong.
Reading his stuff it seems like its a "Mass first" mentality and that has the carry over to life. "Lifting weights should not teach skills. It should develop strength and size that can then apply to daily life or for practice for a sport.". I disagree with this immensely, weight lifting is more technical than people make it out to be and lifting groups are full of men in their 30s and 40s who have messed up shoulders from benching improperly.
Reading his stuff it seems like its a "Mass first" mentality and that has the carry over to life. "Lifting weights should not teach skills. It should develop strength and size that can then apply to daily life or for practice for a sport.". I disagree with this immensely, weight lifting is more technical than people make it out to be and lifting groups are full of men in their 30s and 40s who have messed up shoulders from benching improperly.
coachnathanwhite
Level 6 Valued Member
@Beau Sutton The author seems to be a weight lifter who has a bad taste in his mouth with CrossFit and their hap hazard random use of kettlebell lifts.
He is also a bit weight lifter biased with his comment, "the heaviest kettlebell that can be easily attained weighs about 100 lb. and certainly no more than 150 lb." Demonstrates how unfamiliar he is with kettlebell programming as you could become brutally strong with bells 1/2 this weight.
Based on his comments he has not been exposed to the process oriented "school of strength" methods used at StrongFirst.
He is also a bit weight lifter biased with his comment, "the heaviest kettlebell that can be easily attained weighs about 100 lb. and certainly no more than 150 lb." Demonstrates how unfamiliar he is with kettlebell programming as you could become brutally strong with bells 1/2 this weight.
Based on his comments he has not been exposed to the process oriented "school of strength" methods used at StrongFirst.
Mirek
Level 6 Valued Member
DavThew
Level 6 Valued Member
This +1.
This guy has very much a "my way is the only way and the rest of you are dumb for disagreeing" mentality.
I think he trains to train more, which is not a bad thing in and of itself, but certainly doesn't reflect everyone's goals. There are better resources out there that offer positive advice for trainees than that website.
offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Yes... like SF
Shahaf Levin
Level 5 Valued Member
+1 for sending him to a chat with Dan John
Although his most recent post is titled "My fitness philosophy was wrong", so maybe there hope for him...
Although his most recent post is titled "My fitness philosophy was wrong", so maybe there hope for him...
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
Makes me laugh.
I watched a video wherein I believe it was Mark Riptoe (spelling?) showed how overhead pressing actually makes the shoulder stronger and because of the shoulder design does not cause impingement. Most dangerous to shoulder joints is over reliance on benching. The old time strong men did mostly overhead work and didn't suffer from the rotator cuff injuries that many have today.
I love when they say you can't get big and strong using them because they only go up traditionally to 105 pounds.......ok that's true but I think anyone would get much stronger from doing multiple sets of say five reps with double beasts. I think a person would be pretty jacked up muscle mass wise if he trained on the regular with beast ladders in front squats and presses!
They compare them to Dumbbells wherein you can make dumbbells much heavier......yet I'll bet they don't use the 100 pounders regularly so why draw this comparison. When double beasts feel too light.....which may take a lifetime....then worry about heavier!
With respect to explosive lifts/Olympic lifts.....doing a clean with a barbell usually the form breaks down after three to five reps and the stress on the wrists is pretty tough. Senseless to do a set of ten cleans with a barbell .....THAT is high risk. But doing double cleans with kbells can be done at higher reps....yes, yes it is not as heavy but look at it another way. A set of three power cleans with 300 pounds is a total of 900 pounds.....a set of ten cleans with double 40kg bells yields 1760 pounds.....yes I'm simplifying.
I enjoy when those guys tell me how worthless it is, especially the 300 pound benchers who can't budge a 40kg bell out of the rack for a press!
Bottom line is do what you can do and will stick with for the long haul. I recognize there are multiple ways of exercising and respect what people do as their choice be it crossfit, kbell training, Dumbbells, etc. but I pride myself on not crapping on their chosen exercise protocol.
I will close with this thought.....Ill bet the author has never really worked out with them the way we all espouse!
I watched a video wherein I believe it was Mark Riptoe (spelling?) showed how overhead pressing actually makes the shoulder stronger and because of the shoulder design does not cause impingement. Most dangerous to shoulder joints is over reliance on benching. The old time strong men did mostly overhead work and didn't suffer from the rotator cuff injuries that many have today.
I love when they say you can't get big and strong using them because they only go up traditionally to 105 pounds.......ok that's true but I think anyone would get much stronger from doing multiple sets of say five reps with double beasts. I think a person would be pretty jacked up muscle mass wise if he trained on the regular with beast ladders in front squats and presses!
They compare them to Dumbbells wherein you can make dumbbells much heavier......yet I'll bet they don't use the 100 pounders regularly so why draw this comparison. When double beasts feel too light.....which may take a lifetime....then worry about heavier!
With respect to explosive lifts/Olympic lifts.....doing a clean with a barbell usually the form breaks down after three to five reps and the stress on the wrists is pretty tough. Senseless to do a set of ten cleans with a barbell .....THAT is high risk. But doing double cleans with kbells can be done at higher reps....yes, yes it is not as heavy but look at it another way. A set of three power cleans with 300 pounds is a total of 900 pounds.....a set of ten cleans with double 40kg bells yields 1760 pounds.....yes I'm simplifying.
I enjoy when those guys tell me how worthless it is, especially the 300 pound benchers who can't budge a 40kg bell out of the rack for a press!
Bottom line is do what you can do and will stick with for the long haul. I recognize there are multiple ways of exercising and respect what people do as their choice be it crossfit, kbell training, Dumbbells, etc. but I pride myself on not crapping on their chosen exercise protocol.
I will close with this thought.....Ill bet the author has never really worked out with them the way we all espouse!
MattM
SFG1
I think this is the biggest key.
I think we might add
Avoid avoiders.
There's a way to do almost everything physical by applying StrongFirst principles - we have people here who are engaged in a wide variety of activities. You don't need to avoid anything, you just need a clearly-defined goal, a plan for achieving it, and the strength of both body and mind to execute your plan.
Avoid avoiders.
There's a way to do almost everything physical by applying StrongFirst principles - we have people here who are engaged in a wide variety of activities. You don't need to avoid anything, you just need a clearly-defined goal, a plan for achieving it, and the strength of both body and mind to execute your plan.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
Amen, barbell flat bench is probably responsible for more lifting injuries than any other exercise yet is one of his cornerstones.
Ryan probably found out that criticizing KBs increased traffic on his site since there's so little other negative feedback out there. Don't feed the Troll.
John Grahill
Level 8 Valued Member
Now that I've had my coffee I will say this in addition. Prior to using kettlebells my shoulders were a mess. I could barely press 150 pounds overhead without pain and creaking! I gave up resistance training altogether and did numerous hours of traditional cardio which also led to overuse issues. Tried kettlebell training in the mid 2000s and got hooked on it. My shoulders are better and I now alternate between barbell programs featuring the dreaded overhead work and kettlebell programs. They brought me back to the world of weight training.
I have returned to the ROP for simplicity reasons and have been shocked.........using one bell (40) my shoulders feel better and stronger and by the way my shoulder girdle has thickened up considerably since I started it again.
Simplicity is the kettlebells greatest asset in my mind. Many of these anti kettlebell authors don't really know how to use them and/or they are into the bodybuilding scene where pumping endlessly to develop individual muscle groups is important. Not my bag. I would rather build a strong physique, i.e. thick shoulders and trimmer waist and be able to lift a heavy object, run up a flight of stairs, have a strong grip, etc.
After not touching traditional weights for a few years and using kettlebells I used barbells for the first time this past spring and was able to do a body weight barbell clean and press with no issues at age 51. No record or great feat but I feel it's a good WTH effect! Don't tell me kbells are useless!
Rant over.
I have returned to the ROP for simplicity reasons and have been shocked.........using one bell (40) my shoulders feel better and stronger and by the way my shoulder girdle has thickened up considerably since I started it again.
Simplicity is the kettlebells greatest asset in my mind. Many of these anti kettlebell authors don't really know how to use them and/or they are into the bodybuilding scene where pumping endlessly to develop individual muscle groups is important. Not my bag. I would rather build a strong physique, i.e. thick shoulders and trimmer waist and be able to lift a heavy object, run up a flight of stairs, have a strong grip, etc.
After not touching traditional weights for a few years and using kettlebells I used barbells for the first time this past spring and was able to do a body weight barbell clean and press with no issues at age 51. No record or great feat but I feel it's a good WTH effect! Don't tell me kbells are useless!
Rant over.
Kettlebelephant
Level 6 Valued Member
Isn't that RDL guy the one who seems to only publish articles about what tools and movements you should avoid?
I think we already spoke about him in an older thread.
Bret Contreras even "makes fun of him" in one of his articles: You Should Definitely Avoid this Movement | Bret Contreras
I think we already spoke about him in an older thread.
Bret Contreras even "makes fun of him" in one of his articles: You Should Definitely Avoid this Movement | Bret Contreras
Terry McCarthy
Level 7 Valued Member
1. I don't care what he thinks.
2. His opinion is unlikely to be changed.
3. To each, his own.
@Beau Sutton To paraphrase one of the points - "not the kettlebell, but the girevik may hit you".
No need to respond, we know. As Chief says, "keep swinging!"
No need to respond, we know. As Chief says, "keep swinging!"
JamesO
Level 5 Valued Member
That was the first thing I thought when I saw the site. He's trying to build an audience. Nothing more.
JeffC
Level 7 Valued Member
@North Coast Miller. The bench press is not responsible for injuries anymore than squats are bad for the knees. Trainees disfunctions, egos , and programming are responsible for injuries.
If you are not ready to overhead press, or get up you will injure yourself just the same.
If you are not ready to overhead press, or get up you will injure yourself just the same.
the hansenator
Level 6 Valued Member
What's funny is that many of the exercises he says to avoid I can do without issues. Two out of the three exercises he does recommend cause problems for me so I can't do them.
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