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Kettlebell ROP and preparing for 5-min snatch test

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TimmyCK

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Hi folks! One of my long-term goals is to pass SFG I standards, and I'm finding ROP is a great program for this, since the C&P are built into the program and the other strength moves can be practiced on variety days. The only thing I'm wondering about is the ballistic component, which, from what I understand, is designed to prepare one for the 10-min snatch test. Can, or should, this part be modified or replaced to be more conducive to my goal of passing the 5-min snatch test? If so, what would be a good snatch preparation program to plug in here? (I haven't found many designed to be done 3 days a week)

It seems the two schools of thought here are 1) ROP is an almost "magical" program that shouldn't be touched in any way, shape or form or 2) the magic is in the pressing, ballistics can be played around with. Curious to hear all of your thoughts on this.

Info:
Demographics and injury history: 24 y/o M, some back pain from sitting (not training)

Training: Been alternating between ROP and the Giant

Goals: Pass SFG I standards
 
@TimmyCK
IMO, the ballistic part of ROP is a half-baked afterthought to the press ladders. There are lots of better ways to prepare for the 5 or 10 minute test.

In general, the two things that I think had the most transfer to the snatch test were building volume with the 28 and developing a reserve of grip endurance so I could use a 20/20/15/15/10/10/10 (start and finish on strong hand) rep scheme. Having that reserve of grip strength and endurance just seems to make the whole effort easier and more efficient, and gives that sense of comfort and confidence.

Here's a little bit about my favorite training plan for the snatch test, but as I said, there are LOTS of approaches that people have used successfully.

My go to snatch prep plan is based on an article by Ken Froese that was based on a plan by Randy Hauer. My take on the plan is to incorporate a 28kg bell in addition to a 24kg bell. I find that the 28 gives me enough overload to make the 24 feel easy, but I can still do a reasonable amount of volume with it. Here's the plan:

Test the maximum number of repetitions you can do with your weaker hand with both the 28kg and the 24kg. Do both tests relatively fresh. Make it a slightly uncomfortable max, but not all out to where you are compromising technique to hold onto the bell. Now calculate 120% of each number. That is the number of snatches you will do in each session with each arm, with each bell, but you will break that number up into two sets for each arm for each bell, using a different split each session. There are three sessions per week. The first is a 70%/50% split, the second day is 60%/60%, and the third day is 80%/50%. Round up to the nearest rep when calculating the percentages, although a difference of one rep plus of minus doesn't really matter.

Each day follows the same format, but with different percentages. Start with 28kg. Do both sets with the same arm with 1 minute rest in between, then train the other arm. Then switch bells without resting and do the same thing with 24kg. Here's what the 70/50 session would look like:

28kg: 70%L/Rest 1 min/50%L/70%R/Rest 1 min/50%R
24kg: 70%L/Rest 1 min/50%L/70%R/Rest 1 min/50%R

Adjustments:
--You can reset maxes once a month, or when the current level starts feeling comfortable.
--At the beginning, if you need a minute rest when switching bells, that's okay.
--If you have trouble completing the sessions at the beginning, scale down your maxes so you can get all your reps.
--If you are not comfortable with snatching 28kg, you can start using all 24kg, or any combination of bells that is appropriate for you. If you need to start with lighter bells, you will need to allow for a longer preparation period before you can expect to crush the test, but this would be true of any prep plan. If you can already do a high volume and longer sets with 32kg, you probably don't need a plan to prepare for the test.
--The original plan was only one run through per session with just 24kg, supplemented by swings for more conditioning volume. When I prepped for my last certification test, I did a lot of heavy swings with a combination of grips, at least one very high volume session each week (400-800 swings, but mostly 500-600). Some certification prep plans use a lot of swings as snatch test prep. I've never found great carryover from swings to snatches. Even though they overlap a lot, the groove is different enough so that I've never felt as much transfer, from swings to snatches or snatches to swings, as might be expected. When I did my cert, back in the RKC days when Pavel was there, we did an unbelievably high volume of swings during the cert weekend. I'm not sure if the current cert has the same beat down element to it, but for when I did it, it definitely paid to be acclimated to a high volume of swings.

One other thing I threw in the mix every once in a while was snatch time ladders. For each work set, keep the bell in the air the whole time. "Rest" in the lockout. Don't worry about cadence, don't worry about counting reps, and switch hands as often as you need to, just keep the bell off the ground for the allotted time. Snatch 1 minute/rest 1 minute/snatch 2 minutes/rest 1 minute/snatch 3 minutes/rest 1 minute/snatch 4 minutes. I never went above 4 minutes, but that was bad enough after the previous sets. I used this progression to build up to a 1-4 snatch time ladder, moving up when I could increase the cadence at each level and was confident I could keep the bell in the air for the full time at the next level:
1,1,1,1,1 (if necessary, you can build up to five sets or start with longer rest intervals)
1, 2,1, 1
1,2, 2,1
1,2,2,2
1,2,3,1
1,2,3,2
1,2,3,3
1,2,3,4

Finally, I found actually practicing the test (although not necessarily all out) to be very valuable. It gives you a benchmark for progress, a feel for the pacing, and just a sense of familiarity, comfort and confidence, so you can be more relaxed and not have anxious tension inhibiting your performance.

Although I haven't tested it out, I think Q&D could serve as a good snatch test program. I think if you could do 28kg x 10/2 x 6 series (to make it even between arms) and/or 24kg x 15/2 x 6 series (yes, 15/2 is an option in the book, in the section near the end on varying the weight, although it is not one of the "standard" rep schemes), then the snatch test would be no problem.
 
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Hi folks! One of my long-term goals is to pass SFG I standards, and I'm finding ROP is a great program for this, since the C&P are built into the program and the other strength moves can be practiced on variety days. The only thing I'm wondering about is the ballistic component, which, from what I understand, is designed to prepare one for the 10-min snatch test. Can, or should, this part be modified or replaced to be more conducive to my goal of passing the 5-min snatch test? If so, what would be a good snatch preparation program to plug in here? (I haven't found many designed to be done 3 days a week)

It seems the two schools of thought here are 1) ROP is an almost "magical" program that shouldn't be touched in any way, shape or form or 2) the magic is in the pressing, ballistics can be played around with. Curious to hear all of your thoughts on this.

Info:
Demographics and injury history: 24 y/o M, some back pain from sitting (not training)

Training: Been alternating between ROP and the Giant

Goals: Pass SFG I standards
How many times can you snatch your test bell at present? That gives us more context
 
@TimmyCK
IMO, the ballistic part of ROP is a half-baked afterthought to the press ladders. There are lots of better ways to prepare for the 5 or 10 minute test.

In general, the two things that I think had the most transfer to the snatch test were building volume with the 28 and developing a reserve of grip endurance so I could use a 20/20/15/15/10/10/10 (start and finish on strong hand) rep scheme. Having that reserve of grip strength and endurance just seems to make the whole effort easier and more efficient, and gives that sense of comfort and confidence.

Here's a little bit about my favorite training plan for the snatch test, but as I said, there are LOTS of approaches that people have used successfully.

My go to snatch prep plan is based on an article by Ken Froese that was based on a plan by Randy Hauer. My take on the plan is to incorporate a 28kg bell in addition to a 24kg bell. I find that the 28 gives me enough overload to make the 24 feel easy, but I can still do a reasonable amount of volume with it. Here's the plan:

Test the maximum number of repetitions you can do with your weaker hand with both the 28kg and the 24kg. Do both tests relatively fresh. Make it a slightly uncomfortable max, but not all out to where you are compromising technique to hold onto the bell. Now calculate 120% of each number. That is the number of snatches you will do in each session with each arm, with each bell, but you will break that number up into two sets for each arm for each bell, using a different split each session. There are three sessions per week. The first is a 70%/50% split, the second day is 60%/60%, and the third day is 80%/50%. Round up to the nearest rep when calculating the percentages, although a difference of one rep plus of minus doesn't really matter.

Each day follows the same format, but with different percentages. Start with 28kg. Do both sets with the same arm with 1 minute rest in between, then train the other arm. Then switch bells without resting and do the same thing with 24kg. Here's what the 70/50 session would look like:

28kg: 70%L/Rest 1 min/50%L/70%R/Rest 1 min/50%R
24kg: 70%L/Rest 1 min/50%L/70%R/Rest 1 min/50%R

Adjustments:
--You can reset maxes once a month, or when the current level starts feeling comfortable.
--At the beginning, if you need a minute rest when switching bells, that's okay.
--If you have trouble completing the sessions at the beginning, scale down your maxes so you can get all your reps.
--If you are not comfortable with snatching 28kg, you can start using all 24kg, or any combination of bells that is appropriate for you. If you need to start with lighter bells, you will need to allow for a longer preparation period before you can expect to crush the test, but this would be true of any prep plan. If you can already do a high volume and longer sets with 32kg, you probably don't need a plan to prepare for the test.
--The original plan was only one run through per session with just 24kg, supplemented by swings for more conditioning volume. When I prepped for my last certification test, I did a lot of heavy swings with a combination of grips, at least one very high volume session each week (400-800 swings, but mostly 500-600). Some certification prep plans use a lot of swings as snatch test prep. I've never found great carryover from swings to snatches. Even though they overlap a lot, the groove is different enough so that I've never felt as much transfer, from swings to snatches or snatches to swings, as might be expected. When I did my cert, back in the RKC days when Pavel was there, we did an unbelievably high volume of swings during the cert weekend. I'm not sure if the current cert has the same beat down element to it, but for when I did it, it definitely paid to be acclimated to a high volume of swings.

One other thing I threw in the mix every once in a while was snatch time ladders. For each work set, keep the bell in the air the whole time. "Rest" in the lockout. Don't worry about cadence, don't worry about counting reps, and switch hands as often as you need to, just keep the bell off the ground for the allotted time. Snatch 1 minute/rest 1 minute/snatch 2 minutes/rest 1 minute/snatch 3 minutes/rest 1 minute/snatch 4 minutes. I never went above 4 minutes, but that was bad enough after the previous sets. I used this progression to build up to a 1-4 snatch time ladder, moving up when I could increase the cadence at each level and was confident I could keep the bell in the air for the full time at the next level:
1,1,1,1,1 (if necessary, you can build up to five sets or start with longer rest intervals)
1, 2,1, 1
1,2, 2,1
1,2,2,2
1,2,3,1
1,2,3,2
1,2,3,3
1,2,3,4

Finally, I found actually practicing the test (although not necessarily all out) to be very valuable. It gives you a benchmark for progress, a feel for the pacing, and just a sense of familiarity, comfort and confidence, so you can be more relaxed and not have anxious tension inhibiting your performance.

Although I haven't tested it out, I think Q&D could serve as a good snatch test program. I think if you could do 28kg x 10/2 x 6 series (to make it even between arms) and/or 24kg x 15/2 x 6 series (yes, 15/2 is an option in the book, in the section near the end on varying the weight, although it is not one of the "standard" rep schemes), then the snatch test would be no problem.
Thank you for the plan - I'll definitely consider this! However, I don't have a 28kg - could I adjust the volume accordingly?

Also it's interesting how you don't think there's much carryover between swings and snatches. This seems to be a bit of a controversial topic! Would you recommend practicing swings separately?
 
Thank you for the plan - I'll definitely consider this! However, I don't have a 28kg - could I adjust the volume accordingly?
The original plan only used the 24kg. I added in the 28kg sets because I've found working with the 28kg had great carryover to the 24. So you could definitely just run it with 24kg for the grip endurance, and separately do more volume of swings and snatches for overall conditioning. That could be Q&D, A+A snatches or swings, snatch time ladders -- there are lots of things you could mix and match.

But I highly recommend getting and working with a 28kg at some point. For me, it's a goldilocks bell that gives me an overload compared to 24kg, but it's light enough so I can still get a lot of volume with it and be very aggressive with it. But if you're still getting really comfortable snatching 24kg, then 28kg snatches can wait. And if you need to start the plan with 16kg or 20kg and use 24kg as your overload bell or use a lighter bell for time ladders, that's fine too. Start where you are. But it's still good to work with heavier loads than your current main working snatch weight, whether it's heavier two-arm swings or double cleans (one of my personal favorites). Working with heavier loads just helps your working snatch weight feel lighter.

Also it's interesting how you don't think there's much carryover between swings and snatches. This seems to be a bit of a controversial topic! Would you recommend practicing swings separately?
I don't know about controversial, but I would say it varies by individual. You might be someone who gets great carryover. I'm someone who needs to practice both a lot to be good at both.

I'd also point out that technique and mobility make a huge difference in continuous snatching. The more efficient your technique is, the more reps you can get with the same energy output. And having a good lockout position, where you can "rest" by pausing briefly in the lockout and supporting the bell with your structure and alignment instead of fighting to hold the lockout with muscle power, makes a huge difference as well. If your lockout position has room for improvement, an ounce of mobility can equal a pound of strength and conditioning.
 
Hi folks! One of my long-term goals is to pass SFG I standards, and I'm finding ROP is a great program for this, since the C&P are built into the program and the other strength moves can be practiced on variety days. The only thing I'm wondering about is the ballistic component, which, from what I understand, is designed to prepare one for the 10-min snatch test. Can, or should, this part be modified or replaced to be more conducive to my goal of passing the 5-min snatch test? If so, what would be a good snatch preparation program to plug in here? (I haven't found many designed to be done 3 days a week)

It seems the two schools of thought here are 1) ROP is an almost "magical" program that shouldn't be touched in any way, shape or form or 2) the magic is in the pressing, ballistics can be played around with. Curious to hear all of your thoughts on this.

Info:
Demographics and injury history: 24 y/o M, some back pain from sitting (not training)

Training: Been alternating between ROP and the Giant

Goals: Pass SFG I standards
@TimmyCK I successfully passed my SFGI using the @Brett Jones SFGI prep plan. Still one of my all time favorites and a favorite of my students as well. It's posted here on the SF site. I ran this plan for about 10 months. I started snatching with the 16 and worked my way up to a very solid performance at my certification weekend with my 24.

Personally all of my RoP work was done in preparation for SFGII 1/2 BW press. You should check out SF's new 202 rite of passage workshop. I attended Louka's yesterday via zoom. Pavel has put together new recommendations for the ballistics and several new schemes for the pressing ladders....
 
@TimmyCK
IMO, the ballistic part of ROP is a half-baked afterthought to the press ladders. There are lots of better ways to prepare for the 5 or 10 minute test.

True, if you treat ROP as a program specifically designed to prep for SFG1, which it’s not really, it’s broader than that.

There is now a mainstream acknowledgement that a conditioning “finisher” on the end of a strength session is a great heart-rate and fat metabolising tool. Getting swings or snatches in for this is arguably great (stand fast the thread about Fallacy of Heavy Swings suggesting to reserve swings for power training and not conditioning - another debate).

I’ll agree that it doesn’t “make” the program and is easy to drop - I’d as soon do a fast mile after each session for general fitness - if I were deployed that’d probably be my go to actually (ROP ladders and a 1-3 miler), plus the use of dice can feel a bit gimmicky (but I grew to like it).

snatch test-wise… your program looks solid. I’d certainly expect solid results. A simple and well tried concept - go harder than you need to, and tests will be easier.
 
Great input @Steve W.
I never found much carryover between swings and snatches.
The ROP won't get you to the 10 minute snatch test, unless you snatch on variety days. It's a great program but Steve is right.
I always liked doing a set of 10L, 10R, then resting a minute 10 times twice a week as a good way to begin and then lowering the rest period 5 seconds every 2 weeks or so.
My only other suggestion and this is the in my opinion the KEY. GET USED TO RESTING WITH THE BELL OVERHEAD. Do not put the bell down. If you do it once, you'll continue to do so as you fatigue. Fatigue makes cowards of us all and you'll lose valuable time coaxing yourself into picking it up again.
 
Great input @Steve W.
I never found much carryover between swings and snatches.
The ROP won't get you to the 10 minute snatch test, unless you snatch on variety days. It's a great program but Steve is right.
I always liked doing a set of 10L, 10R, then resting a minute 10 times twice a week as a good way to begin and then lowering the rest period 5 seconds every 2 weeks or so.
My only other suggestion and this is the in my opinion the KEY. GET USED TO RESTING WITH THE BELL OVERHEAD. Do not put the bell down. If you do it once, you'll continue to do so as you fatigue. Fatigue makes cowards of us all and you'll lose valuable time coaxing yourself into picking it up again.
Yes, I agree about keeping the bell in the air the whole time. I've seen some guys stop and start multiple times while successfully completing both tests, but that's definitely not for me. For me, parking the bell for a short rest and then starting again from a dead stop is more physically and psychologically difficult than working continuously.

But if you don't have a good, relatively passive lockout, it makes things much tougher, especially for the 10 minute test. You slow down because your hips are tired, you're sucking wind and your grip is burning out, then you have to speed up because your delts and triceps are burning out from pausing in the lockout.

I also like to be able to do the 100 rep test with lots of time to spare. You don't get any bonus points for finishing faster, but I just never want any anxiety about running out of time. So that lends itself to working quickly and continuously, rather than taking any breaks to put the bell down.

BTW, in my experience, the 10 minute test is a whole different animal than the 100 rep test in 5 minutes. When I'm trained up to do it, I can power through the 100 rep test in 4 minutes and be done just as it's starting to get unpleasant. But being in shape to do that is not going to get me to 200 in 10. I've failed at 200 in 10 a number of times, and only succeeded once, and I have no plans to ever do it again.
 
True, if you treat ROP as a program specifically designed to prep for SFG1, which it’s not really, it’s broader than that.
Well, one of the ROP goals is the SSST, 200 snatches with 24kg in 10 minutes. While the pressing program is a great one for getting to the goal of a 1/2 BW press, I would be surprised if anyone (even a single person) has ever reached the snatch goal just following the program as written.

And while I'm sure lots of people have just run the press ladders part of ROP and done something else for ballistics or "conditioning," I would be shocked if anyone ONLY did the ballistic part of ROP to meet the 200 in 10 goal and did something else for presses/grinds.
 
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Numbers are in! A mere 44 reps in 5 min with the 24kg. I definitely felt like my strength was more limiting than my endurance.
Good for you for giving it a go! Now you have a baseline to improve upon, and learned a lot about your limiters.

Do you recall your reps per hand as you went? How much do you feel like that was a factor? And were you setting the kettlebell down between all hand switches?
 
Numbers are in! A mere 44 reps in 5 min with the 24kg. I definitely felt like my strength was more limiting than my endurance.
Ok great what rep scheme did you use?

Have you tried to do a snatch test with a 16kg first?
 
Personally all of my RoP work was done in preparation for SFGII 1/2 BW press. You should check out SF's new 202 rite of passage workshop. I attended Louka's yesterday via zoom. Pavel has put together new recommendations for the ballistics and several new schemes for the pressing ladders....
I didn't even think to ask if those new workshops were available remote... Now I'm kinda bummed. Louka's Youtube is my go to for all things kettlebell related.
 
Good for you for giving it a go! Now you have a baseline to improve upon, and learned a lot about your limiters.

Do you recall your reps per hand as you went? How much do you feel like that was a factor? And were you setting the kettlebell down between all hand switches?
I'd usually do 5-3 reps per side, set it down, and then switch. I definitely felt the need to switch often as the fifth rep on a side was quite difficult, despite resting at lockout as long as I wanted. My glutes and upper back are hurting units today! Still, maybe I'm using too much arm?
Ok great what rep scheme did you use?

Have you tried to do a snatch test with a 16kg first?
As many reps as I could do at a time without my form going too far south, usually 3-5, then setting the bell down and switching sides. Haven't tried a test with the 16kg - maybe next Sunday (my heavy day)? Looking through my old ROP logs, it seems that for 3-8 minute intervals I'd be snatching at about 10 reps/min (which of course happens on the light day so probably 60% of my max intensity).
 
I'd usually do 5-3 reps per side, set it down, and then switch. I definitely felt the need to switch often as the fifth rep on a side was quite difficult, despite resting at lockout as long as I wanted. My glutes and upper back are hurting units today! Still, maybe I'm using too much arm?
So your grip is definitely a limiter. My typical reps for a good snatch test are (switching hands with each / and right hand having more endurance -- in a snatch test you don't have to equal out, but you want to train both sides equally in training) 15/15/10/10/10/8/8/7/5/7/5. From what I've seen, others are typically similar. For me, that's with a 16kg snatch test, but I've done a lot of snatching in the past and could do 24kg for 10 reps in a set on one hand when I was strongest at it.

As to whether your technique is putting extra strain on your grip, or your grip just doesn't have much endurance, either one could be the case. The good news is, with training you will improve! There are lots of suggestions already about how to progress so I won't throw another one in the mix, but a video for form check might help eliminate any obvious form problems.
 
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