Kettlebell RoP & OCR

[Kozushi]

Hello,

I agree with @Kozushi Snatches quickly take their toll on the grip. It requires some time for the skin to adapt. I do not have this issue with C&P or swings. This is the main reason why I do not snatch a lot. Plus, I do plenty of other stuff which use the grip, like carries or pull ups.

Swings & C&P are a wonderful combination. I admit there are two "pulls" in this pair, with the clean and the swings, however, they are different, one is more of a "vertical" pull than the other, which is more circular.

After RoP, indeed, I had my best body composition, as far as kb training goes. However, this is a very taxing program, because it is a peak protocol.

Shortly after completed it, I tackled Red Zone. By the way, there is a great topic about it here: The Red Zone (Pavel, T. Program)

This is an excellent protocol, which I consider as a "steroid-free" version of RoP. Up to a point, we have to practice S&S 3x a week to keep progressing - meaning going heavier - without burning out. Same is true with RZ. I just maintained my body composition and "performance", but without the RoP burn out.

As always, it depends on the goal. But if someone prepares OCR, I think RZ may be even more well-suited for the task than RoP thanks to the shorter recovery. Do not misunderstand me, RoP is wonderful, it does not have to be considered as a maintenance. RZ can be considered as maintenance & progression if performed long enough.

RZ and S&S works extremely well on alternate days. During the first lockdown in France, this is what I did. I did timeless Simple one day, and RZ (32 for swings and 24 for C&P) the other day. It maintained my conditioning extremely well (I just "lost" 15 minutes to my 15km trail, without running for 3 months).

Kind regards,

Pet'

I am actually going to do the Red Zone programme. I didn't know about it, and it fits a need I have seen for a long while. I have always done various presses as part of my training, but I didn't know what Strong First (I want to be consistent and to follow only one school of weight training, so I only follow Strong First) had to mix swings and presses. As far as I knew, nothing at all! (Not that I was looking especially hard of course! - just looking in the published books.)

Okay, so the 100 1 handed swings a day is a constant, and I get why due to the in depth explanations in S&S 2.0. So we keep these, but replace the TGU with sets of up to 5 presses (either C&P or military style, doesn't matter it says) adding up to 25 each arm, one session of this before the swings and the other after, so 50 presses per arm, per day!

This is very good! This gives me an alternative to S&S for just something different to do when I feel like it and for a focus on pressing, which is a very good thing to get good at!

As an aside I've been noticing myself really bulking up recently through the confinement. I'm training more regularly with my kettlebells than back when I had martial arts to do as well, and going a bit lighter on the swings (down to the 28 from 32) is allowing me to put more force into it and to train every day.

I never have or ever will use anything remotely like any kind of steroid or supplement. The bulking up is from this training and probably from expending less calories and eating more. I quite like it!!!

 

[marvinthemartian]

@Kozushi: The only KB books from StrongFirst are S&S and Q&D but they only cover a fraction of what SF or Pavel have to say about KBs. I think we need to start a fund raiser to commission a book for you so you can explore SF KB training beyond S&S

PS: I am a newb myself and haven't been to a seminar (yet). So I don't know the nuts and bolt's of Pavel/SF KB training myself.

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Kozushi
In addition, you may also see a great increase in your TGU, by performing "that much" presses, even with a lighter weight.

I remember that after my cycle of RoP with the 24, it just took me 2 or 3 days of GTG with the GU to do them again with the 32. I guess having already reach Simple before helped me though.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

@Kozushi
In addition, you may also see a great increase in your TGU, by performing "that much" presses, even with a lighter weight.

I remember that after my cycle of RoP with the 24, it just took me 2 or 3 days of GTG with the GU to do them again with the 32. I guess having already reach Simple before helped me though.

Kind regards,

Pet'

I'm excited by the Red Zone programme because it doesn't involve rubbing the skin off my hands. It can be done with straight military presses and it is done with swings, neither of which damage the skin.

 

[Kozushi]

@Kozushi: The only KB books from StrongFirst are S&S and Q&D but they only cover a fraction of what SF or Pavel have to say about KBs. I think we need to start a fund raiser to commission a book for you so you can explore SF KB training beyond S&S

PS: I am a newb myself and haven't been to a seminar (yet). So I don't know the nuts and bolt's of Pavel/SF KB training myself.

He also wrote books before Strong First was founded, like the book containing ROP.

This "Red Zone" programme that was introduced to me today "fits" for me. I'll be doing it alongside S&S, even if it's just for variety every so often. If I want the SFG1 I'll need to tran my hand skin to handle the snatch test though... But I'll not rush this.

 

[Rumsmike]

I think we need to start a fund raiser to commission a book for you so you can explore SF KB training beyond S&S

Everybody deserves to have someone who loves them as much as @Kozushi loves S&S. ?

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Kozushi
I am glad you found something that fits your goal !

Something I recently 'figured out': it is better to perform dead start C&P than regular C&P. That way, you do not cheat the start of the clean by doing this sort of 'bouncing' start. This is really much more like lifting so !mething explosively from the ground, which is more real world oriented.

I hope you'll enjoy !

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[masa]

Did I understood correctly, that @Eric Frohardt, you did only two-Swings back then?

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

@Kozushi
I am glad you found something that fits your goal !

Something I recently 'figured out': it is better to perform dead start C&P than regular C&P. That way, you do not cheat the start of the clean by doing this sort of 'bouncing' start. This is really much more like lifting so !mething explosively from the ground, which is more real world oriented.

I hope you'll enjoy !

Kind regards,

Pet'

I think I know what you mean, but to confirm, you mean to place the bell on the floor after each rep?

 

[Kozushi]

Everybody deserves to have someone who loves them as much as @Kozushi loves S&S. ?

Haha! My wife agrees!

I just see the benefit in specialization. I'd rather be good at S&S than bad at several programmes that I don't stick with.
I don't in any way think it's "the only programme" worth following, haha!

It is the same for martial arts. I hear some people in kendo dissing fencing, or in judo dissing BJJ or whatever (these are pairs of mostly similar but a bit different martial arts/combat sports for those who don't know.) This all stems from not having spent any reasonable amount of time training in the other martial art to learn to value it. (I have.) I now think this kind of thinking is wrong.
I am not focussing on kendo because fencing is bad, and I'm not doing judo instead of BJJ because I think BJJ is impractical (or whatever.)
Fencing is better than kendo at some things and the same for BJJ versus judo, and in most senses each half of the pair is equal to the other. You still have to get past the opponent's sword to make a hit no matter what art you're doing, and you still have to get past the opponent's arms to get the pin, submission or throw, no matter what the art is.

It does not make sense to make one's goals "EVERYTHING!!!" Hahaha! Gotta pick and choose and specialize, or suffer the consequences of training very hard at a lot of things just to discover you are good at none of them.

Just to not be secretive, since no one at all asked me, and I'm not in a "logical" frame of mind right now, I'll give my main reasons for choosing kendo and judo (besides location of the clubs, friends in them etc...) For kendo I like using both arms - it's a more balanced workout in my opinion, and the sword is more realistically weighted and shaped than orthopedic fencing weapons; I also like the Japanese cultural aspect with tie-ins to Korean culture, which I am part of through being a speaker of the language, and I like wearing armour, which is just "cool", I also like the philosophical Zen aspects and ceremonies. For judo over BJJ, I have a paranoia of being attacked while I am on my feet by someone rushing at me or trying to sucker punch me. I want to smash him on the ground and dominate instantly. That's why. It's psychological. I feel vulnerable if I can't do this. There is also a decent amount of training on the ground in judo, which isn't as specialized as BJJ, but it's perfectly reasonable to limit ground training if one also wants to know how to wrestle on one's feet. It's a reasonable trade-off in my mind. The trick is to make friends with BJJ people and pick their brains as often as possible in addition to the judo-rules ground training, haha! I am lucky I have BJJ friends! (BJJ and judo ground rules are actually a bit but significantly different making the requisite strategies different too - like rugby and football kind of.)

To counter the above. In what ways (to me) are fencing and BJJ better? For fencing, one handed sword fighting is historically speaking more "the norm" as you typically had to have something in your other hand (shield, reins of a horse etc...) For BJJ, the ground part of the fight can be quite "final" as you're getting into finishing someone off on the ground with a choke, head trauma etc (or more humanely speaking, you need to be able to escape this as the intended victim!...)

This has been a completely unsolicited "me putting my thoughts together" post out of the blue.

But back to S&S. It has taken me a long time to get to where I am now with it, and I'm still getting stronger and fitter with it. I'm kind of "locked in" and it's making me "huge"!

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Kozushi
Yes you got it well. You place the bell on the flood at each repetition

To get conditioning from it, you can perform it on alternate arms, during the amount of time you decide. The idea here is to never stop (so no rest). You have to be slow enough to endure the whole duration, but fast enough to never break the flow.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

@Kozushi
Yes you got it well. You place the bell on the flood at each repetition

To get conditioning from it, you can perform it on alternate arms, during the amount of time you decide. The idea here is to never stop (so no rest). You have to be slow enough to endure the whole duration, but fast enough to never break the flow.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Okay, so 50 total before and after the swings. Got it. I'll try this tonight I think. "RED ZONE"!

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Kozushi
You cannot go wrong with this program !

On the last week of RoP, you end up with 155 presses. RZ ramps up to 150 (50 per session, 3x a week). So the total weekly volume is almost the same. However, because this is evenly split throughout the week, as opposed to L/M/H day, there is less recovery issue.

During the first lockdown, I used it on alternate days with S&S. Back then, I did Timeless Simple. This combination worked extremely well because back then, everything was closed and we were not really allowed to go out (so no boxing, no rucking, no trailing). I maintained almost all my conditioning and increased my strength.

Technique aside, I think this is a good way to be in "fighting shape" for your kendo and judo.

For myself, when I got back to boxing, I have not lost that much, not to say at all. I did shadow boxing everyday only.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

@Kozushi
You cannot go wrong with this program !

On the last week of RoP, you end up with 155 presses. RZ ramps up to 150 (50 per session, 3x a week). So the total weekly volume is almost the same. However, because this is evenly split throughout the week, as opposed to L/M/H day, there is less recovery issue.

During the first lockdown, I used it on alternate days with S&S. Back then, I did Timeless Simple. This combination worked extremely well because back then, everything was closed and we were not really allowed to go out (so no boxing, no rucking, no trailing). I maintained almost all my conditioning and increased my strength.

Technique aside, I think this is a good way to be in "fighting shape" for your kendo and judo.

For myself, when I got back to boxing, I have not lost that much, not to say at all. I did shadow boxing everyday only.

Kind regards,

Pet'

I didn't get to it last night, went on a 75 minute walk instead with my wife and then did some work for my job online.
I'll experiment with Red Zone next time I workout. I'll see what suits me best regarding setting the weight on the floor and alternating, or even just doing military presses from the rack position. In any case it is nice to have a professionally recommended "daily dose" of presses, and to see how they should be set on either side of a 1 hand swing workout.

An idea I'm toying with is to do the presses with the 28 but the swings with the 24 (the 24 is a bit "too light" for me, but still worthwhile.) This way the swings will give me a break in between the heavier presses, and a break from my S&S days with the 28 for swings and the 32 for TGUs.

THIS SITE NEEDS A PAGE OF SF-RECOGNIZED WORKOUTS ORGANIZED AS A CATALOGUE. There, I "called it out"! Now I'm going to go run for cover and hide my face like an ostrich in the sand!

Good training, y'all!