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Kettlebell RoP & OCR

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Hello,

malleus said:
@pet' , why 50 or 60 swings? Is that enough? Why not, 100, like in s&s? Thanx
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Due to other activities I do, such as running, boxing, rucking, etc..performing more swings would be tough from a recovery standpoint.

I also found that this volume seems to be the right spot: it improves everything I do. More would be detrimental for the quality of the whole

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
pet' said:
Hello,

@Eric Frohardt
Out of curiosity, why did you train with RoP instead of S&S for instance, which is also GPP oriented ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
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It was not out when I did that deployment. In fact, S&S came out after I got out of the military. I wish Pavel had came out w/ it earlier. It's much more sustainable. There were nights (though few), when I went hard enough on a training session to notice the effects during one of my 'night hikes.' Doing a the SSST is one such example!
 
Hello,

@Eric Frohardt
If you ran SS afterwards, did you notice similar results ?

I do admit that sustainability is something I am looking for because I want this physical preparation to be an assistance to my other activities. I do not want my prep to be an activity per se.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Pet,

When I did S&S, I noticed AMAZING results. I did NOT do a formal PT test before and after S&S, but I saw results in other ways. Namely: I could hike higher & faster, ski 2-3 days in a row w/out a lot of back pain, and generally do things / move better. Like RoP, I plan to revisit S&S again someday in the future.

When I was doing S&S, I had the best results doing it 2-3 days/week. This is most likely due to my inability to have an 'easy day' combined w/ my high mileage.

My training now is less consistent due to travel. I try to either do Q&D (the Swing/Push-up program, aka 033C) or A+A Snatches (per the awesome thread elsewhere on this forum). Perhaps if I sign up for something (like an OCR), I'll take it more serious?


Eric
 
Hello,

@Eric Frohardt
Back then, if both RoP and S&S would have been published, what would you have chosen (considering your work) : RoP with more volume but a lighter weight or S&S with an heavier weight ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Pet,

Both programs are SO different. Ideally, on a deployment, I'd do S&S 2-3x's / week along with some variety days (light cardio, jump rope, bag work, etc.). That would leave plenty in the tank for my 'night hikes!'

That said, RoP was an amazing program as well. Not only did I gain/maintain on my overall S&C, but it also served as great prep for my certification. I followed it again, a little, in both 2008 and 2009. When I dedicated myself to it (2009, I think) and practiced the other lifts once in awhile, I was more than prepared for my first cert.

Can't go wrong w/ either, unless you try to do too much I 'spose!
 
Hello,

@Eric Frohardt
You definitely convinced me to start RoP. So first off, I thank you for all your information and advices ! :)

Based on your experience, and considering SS only as a support activity, when you perform it, is 'the heavier the better' or is there a minimum efficient weight ? The idea is to keep smoothly progressing without impairing recovery (I weigh about 64kg (141lbs))

Thanks !

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
If I were you, I'd follow RoP as Rx'd. The book even tells you how to incorporate pull-ups (lower volume) into your program. On variety days, I wouldn't do anything heavy. Perhaps do your running on the variety days. Don't try to do RoP and S&S @ the same time. To do so would come at the expense of one of them. Do RoP for awhile. Take a break after. Then go back to S&S. That's my $0.02.
 
Hello,

Eric Frohardt said:
Don't try to do RoP and S&S @ the same time. To do so would come at the expense of one of them
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Oh non I do not want to do them at the same time. When I was chasing Simple some times I ago, I dedicated all my training to it. Back then, I trained S&S at least 4 times a week. Therefore it would be impossible for me to follow both S&S and RoP.

Since I do swings & presses (without following RoP, but my own "blend") my weight is drastically going up. I am also getting a wider torso (mostly lats and obliques) and legs. Did you notice some kind of change in your body composition following either RoP or S&S ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
@Pet, if I may, when I first started the ROP in my garage I weighed about 194. My goal for the 1/2 bodyweight press was the 44 kg. I ended up needing to press the beast for my 1/2 weight press! I had gained about 10 pounds or so BUT my pants fit looser! So I agree with your assessment about clean and presses and swings because I definitely gained muscle mass! Having said that I now realize that I did so because I was very pedantic about the "I go" "you go" rest periods which most likely induced muscle.
This was like more than 10 years ago.

Subsequent runs through the ROP in recent times has seen me far less pedantic for a lack of a better term with regards to clean and press ladders and the ballistic portion of the program.
 
Hello,

@John Grahill
Not so long ago - approximately Novembre 2019 - I weighted "only" 57-58kg for 1,83m. So I was fairly skinny.

Then, I started presses (mostly OAP and OAOL PU at the time) and swings. Back then, I wanted to gain some "functional muscle mass". So I ate a little bit more (but not indulging) and slowly gain weight, up until 62. Since I press even more, but with my swings & OVH & pull up blend, have been gaining weight again, even faster than before ! I do not eat more than the November period, but since the beginning of 2020, I gain 3kg without paying attention to weight at all !

The "fun" thing is that all this weight gain improves both my strength and endurance.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Hello,

I know this is out of the OP but it will avoid to create a new thread. I just stumbled accross these video were they took athletes from differents sports (triathlon, OCR, NFL, SERE specialist, etc...) and they made them compete in different event (wrestling, OCR, etc...).


Kind regards,

Pet'
 
My only "thing" with the ROP moves of C&P and snatches is the friction on the hands. I guess your skin adapts to it in time... I guess. Otherwise, it would seem Clean&Press and snatches develop you in a very similar way to swings and getups. I wonder why swings and C&P aren't "a thing" though. I'm sure there is a reason of course. I've always done the C&P and military press single and double alongside S&S in some way (sometimes seriously following the ROP protocol) over the past nearly 5 years since starting with Strong First. The ROP moves have tended to function for me as "I don't feel like doing a whole S&S practice today, so I'll do as much ROP stuff as I feel like".

Like Pet, following the Strong First programme(s) has had me gain weight, muscle weight. My torso has broadened out a great deal, my shoulders of course too, lats. My core stability is very good, cardio endurance very good, balance and body awareness also very good. I think also like Pet I'm a bit surprised at gaining the bulk. I like it though! Being bigger is being stronger, as he and I are noticing!

Again I'm noticing people pointing out the importance of getting out and jogging or hiking. For me the choice is hiking/walking due to its convenience. I'm convinced that simple walking does a lot more for athletes than might be appreciated by a lot of people.
 
Kozushi said:
I wonder why swings and C&P aren't "a thing" though.
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What do you mean? Even RoP has you do swings twice a week and snatches only on your easy day. There are so many KB programs (from Pavel and others) and eventually people will have to make adjustments to make basic template fit their needs anyways. IMO doing a press and a whole body pull and doing grinds up to 5 reps/set and quick lifts in the 10-20 rep/set range could be used as a basic description for simple Pavel-style KB programs.

EDIT: Here is a minimalist C&P+Swing routine from Pavel from 15 years ago:

PT: Here's the routine: 5×5 presses per arm, 5×10 swings per arm, wrap up with another 5×5 presses. It's up to you whether you want to clean the kettlebell once for each set of presses or once before each rep. Don't fail. If you can't make the prescribed reps, do more sets of fewer reps to make up the total; for example 3×5, 1×4, 2×3 for a total of 25. Rest as little as you can between sets. Start with a lot lower numbers and build up slowly. Train three times a week. Stretch. Eat a cow. Every fourth week take it easy. This means do half the reps on all your sets.
Click to expand...

Bodybuilding Success Blueprint: The Red Zone -

Russian Pavel Tsatsouline?s Unique Perspective on Muscle Building, Strength and Kettlebell Training
www.ironmanmagazine.com www.ironmanmagazine.com
 
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Hello,

I agree with @Kozushi Snatches quickly take their toll on the grip. It requires some time for the skin to adapt. I do not have this issue with C&P or swings. This is the main reason why I do not snatch a lot. Plus, I do plenty of other stuff which use the grip, like carries or pull ups.

Swings & C&P are a wonderful combination. I admit there are two "pulls" in this pair, with the clean and the swings, however, they are different, one is more of a "vertical" pull than the other, which is more circular.

After RoP, indeed, I had my best body composition, as far as kb training goes. However, this is a very taxing program, because it is a peak protocol.

Shortly after completed it, I tackled Red Zone. By the way, there is a great topic about it here: The Red Zone (Pavel, T. Program)

This is an excellent protocol, which I consider as a "steroid-free" version of RoP. Up to a point, we have to practice S&S 3x a week to keep progressing - meaning going heavier - without burning out. Same is true with RZ. I just maintained my body composition and "performance", but without the RoP burn out.

As always, it depends on the goal. But if someone prepares OCR, I think RZ may be even more well-suited for the task than RoP thanks to the shorter recovery. Do not misunderstand me, RoP is wonderful, it does not have to be considered as a maintenance. RZ can be considered as maintenance & progression if performed long enough.

RZ and S&S works extremely well on alternate days. During the first lockdown in France, this is what I did. I did timeless Simple one day, and RZ (32 for swings and 24 for C&P) the other day. It maintained my conditioning extremely well (I just "lost" 15 minutes to my 15km trail, without running for 3 months).

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
marvinthemartian said:
What do you mean? Even RoP has you do swings twice a week and snatches only on your easy day. There are so many KB programs (from Pavel and others) and eventually people will have to make adjustments to make basic template fit their needs anyways. IMO doing a press and a whole body pull and doing grinds up to 5 reps/set and quick lifts in the 10-20 rep/set range could be used as a basic description for simple Pavel-style KB programs.

EDIT: Here is a minimalist C&P+Swing routine from Pavel from 15 years ago:


Bodybuilding Success Blueprint: The Red Zone -

Russian Pavel Tsatsouline?s Unique Perspective on Muscle Building, Strength and Kettlebell Training
www.ironmanmagazine.com www.ironmanmagazine.com
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Thank you _very much_ for that! I'll be doing this for a change from S&S here and there!

  • 25 presses per arm with the clean or not divided into at least 5 sets.
  • 100 swings like in S&S (10X10 r,l)
  • The 25 presses per arm again as at first.
 
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