all posts post new thread

Kettlebell RoP & OCR

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
pet'

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

@Pavel Macek , @Al Ciampa
A while ago, I stumbled accross this article on SF blog, written by Eric Frohardt:
www.strongfirst.com

What the Hell Effect Military-Style | StrongFirst

Somewhere in central Iraq, I stopped in my tracks. I had read about the what the hell effect but was not sure if I believed it. I did now.
www.strongfirst.com

On Youtube, I also found the following video (here, the first 8 minutes relates to kettlebell training):


To sum everything up a little bit, he says he did RoP with the 24kg bell. Nonetheless, he also says that RoP session never lasted more than 40 minutes. In the article, he mentioned he performed the 5 ladders of 5 as well

I have absolutely no doubt he actually did it, but the session durations surprise me, even for some kind of "tactical elite athlete".

Therefore, based on your experience as a coach for pro athletes (among others), do you think this is "possible" ? Or possible only based on some certain conditions ?

I am also amazed by the results of such a "little weight", we we see how he performed for running, pull ups, etc...doing just RoP. Is it mainly due to the RoP training volume ?

I currently train for long lasting events (OCRs) in the mountains with a daily and steady diet of heavy OA swing, presses and pull ups. As you see, this is pretty "GPP oriented". Do you think RoP may also work then ?

Thanks !

Pet'
 
@pet' , I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as Pavel or Al but as I mentioned previously about this video, this man was a SEAL. Special operators of that caliber are in my mind like professional athletes. Kind of tough to compare oneself with an athlete like that. (If you are, I mean no disrespect)

Generally speaking from my humble experience, they are usually physically blessed from birth. Go to a high school football game and take notice of the "gifted" athletes on the field, most of whom won't even make it to a small college team let alone a Division 1 program. Reaching the professional level is truly a rarity. Frequently they excell in any physical program they attempt.

Having said that my take away as an "average guy" is that a basic training modality like a kettlebell if applied properly can maintain fitness and readiness levels without having to join a gym, buy new running shoes, ride a bike, etc. to stay in shape.
 
Hello,

Did you run 'only' the C&P part (as the article and video mention) or did you run snatches / swings as well ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Wow, I made it back on to the StrongFirst forum!

Happy to add a little context to my statement made on the podcast interview: I remember getting 'Enter the Kettlebell' just before deployment in 2006. As luck would have it, I had just completed my own PRT (Physical Readiness Test). This test (which I designed on my own) included a max dead-lift, body-weight bench press for reps, max pull-ups and a timed run (among some other things).

On my deployment, I simply followed the RoP protocol (C&P ladders and Swings). I did work up to 5 ladders to 5 using 24kg on a heavy day (Saturday, if I recall correctly). These were followed by 2H swings using the same weight. At one point, I worked up to 30 reps per minute x 10-minutes (300 reps in 10-minutes). Not exactly sure how long my training sessions took. Some were shorter, some were longer. I'm guessing 45-minutes was the average. I suspect the days I did 5 ladders to 5 were a bit longer. I should also mention, that I regularly went out at night on long 'hikes with my friends' wearing 50-70lbs of gear...

At some point during that deployment, I tested myself using the SSST. If I recall correctly, you are supposed to test it once every so often. It has always been a goal of mine to hit 200 reps in 10-minutes. Thanks to RoP, I finally did (and @ a BW of 180lbs). Thankfully, I didn't have to go out on a 'hike' that night as I remember being SMOKED!

After that deployment I re-tested. My deadlift increased dramatically. My bench press reps maintained. Pull-ups went up dramatically and my timed run maintained. Plus, for some reason, I could now do 2-3 muscle-ups. Before that deployment, I couldn't do one!

I remember when I first heard about the WTH effect. After that deployment and after following RoP, I definitely said 'WTH?' It was very interesting to see these results from a program that was basically 2 lifts done 3x's / week w/ a single 24-kg KB. Since then, I've been a huge fan of these simple 2-lift programs.

These were my results. I don't know if they are typical. I'm not sure if I'm a 'great athlete' as mentioned earlier in the thread. But I can say, I am probably able to push myself harder than most (often to my detriment!).
 
Hello,

@Eric Frohardt
Thanks for your answer !

Do you think RoP paired with swings, some running / rucking may be a good general program for long OCR events ?

Most of the time, how much time did you rest between rungs / ladders ?

I do not necessarily want to do a wonderful time, but just finish without too much pain and suffering hehe

Thanks again,

Pet'
 
Last edited:
Pet',

It depends on the OCR event. I've done a Spartan (Sprint) and a Tough Mudder. There are some similarities between the two and some differences. I think both swings and snatches are great to incorporate into an OCR training plan. They help your overall conditioning, power and grip work. All of these are helpful in an OCR.

If you want to finish w/out too much pain, you have to incorporate some other things as well. I think pull-ups are crucial, for obvious reasons. Before I did the Spartan race, I added burpees to my training as I knew there'd be some burpees during the race. Most importantly, you have to run. There's just no getting around it. If the race is 3-miles long, you gotta be able to run 3-miles. If the race is 12-miles long, you gotta be able to run 12-miles. Otherwise, you might be able to finish...but it will probably hurt.

Hope this helps!


Eric
 
Hello,

@Eric Frohardt
Yes it helps !

I already do about 150 pull ups a day (mostly sets of 35, using GTG). On a daily basis, I also do 3 pull ups with 40kg added (these are 'singles' of course !)

Otherwise, I do 50 - 60 swings @40, every day, and also about 20 presses @20 daily

I run twice a week for at least 15km in the woods (including plenty of hills)

I was amazed by your RoP results because it sounded like it could help me ! Now i am sure it will be !

Then, following RoP, should I drop or modify something ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Wow! You definitely have the pullups covered if you are doing 150/day and can do sets of 3 @ 40kg! It also seems like you have the running covered if you can go 15k in the woods. That's pretty decent mileage. Your swings and presses are impressive as well. Perhaps I should be the one asking YOU for advice?

The RoP program is great, but there are other programs to consider as well... if I were you, I would:
  1. Continue running 2-days/week in the woods (hills and uneven terrain are a must for OCR), and consider varying the distances (1-medium, 1-long run per week). Nothing can replace running, IMO.
  2. Continue doing pull-ups, but be careful with that volume (150/day seems like a lot!)
  3. Incorporate S&S, A+A or Q&D work into the mix:
    • S&S: If you haven't already, be sure you can achieve the 'Simple' standard (sounds like you have)
    • A+A: Either swings or snatches, done EMOM (there's a GREAT A+A thread on here already)
    • Q&D: The program in Pavel's new book featuring heavy 1H swings & push-ups (another great 2-movement program)
    • Perhaps even consider alternating between Q&D and A+A to add variety. I like them both!
That said, the RoP is a great program. If you want to do it, DO IT! I'd choose a time not too close to the planned event or race. Then follow the program as described in Pavel's awesome book "Enter the Kettlebell!"
  • Mon: (Light) C&P ladders & snatches
  • Tue: Variety (slow/easy run)
  • Wed: (Medium) C&P ladders & swings
  • Thu: Variety (slow/easy run)
  • Fri: Off
  • Sat: (Heavy) C&P ladders and hard swings (test yourself every 4-8 weeks)
  • Sun: Off
If you want to keep pull-ups in your training, you certainly can. Pavel even talks about them on page 138 of the book. Note: you'll most definitely need to reduce the volume due to the high volume of C&P's and Swings in RoP.

As you get closer to the planned event or race, you'll want to shift your training to more closely mimic the movements and energy systems used for the event or race. That won't be too challenging due to the high level of General Physical Fitness you'll have built already.

Please bear in mind, I'm NOT a trainer or coach and I'm probably not qualified to be giving advice!! I usually go too hard, too often on top of the hard mileage I've already accumulated....
 
Hello @Eric Frohardt

Thank you so much for your answer and all your details !

Then, I think I will give RoP a try to see how it goes !

I ran S&S some time ago, up until timeless 'Solid' (so with 40). I guess I would not be able to do TGU with 32 today hehe. In your opinion, would S&S be better for this kind of purpose ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Last edited:
Welcome to the forum @Eric Frohardt
Man, myth and legend. :)

I agree with @John Grahill.
Navy seals and special force guys in general are athletes. Most of them can propably run sub 3h marathons and other stuff like that which can be done only with good genetics and hard work!
 
@pet' I think something like q&d snatch protocol + some farmer carries/holds and chinups could be good combination for OCR. And running naturally.

I did rop with 32kg and It made me feel like a athlete, but I think combining it with running could be too much.
 
@pet'
I would like to tag on to what @Eric Frohardt said.
I think that with what you already have going on with pull-ups and running (and some of the other fine stuff I know that you do) that you are 'fit' enough (if there is such a thing...)
I wouldn't abandon any of what you are doing, but rather try to augment it with some skill specific training. Do you know what type of obstacles you will need to deal with? Spartan races for example although they can differ 'usually' always have some signature obstacles: Rope Climb, Hercules Hoist, Spear Throw, Some form of carry, etc.
I would research this and see if you can hone these skills.

Running really is key to these things however if you have aspirations of a good or high finish...
 
pet' said:
Hello,

@Eric Frohardt
Yes it helps !

I already do about 150 pull ups a day (mostly sets of 35, using GTG). On a daily basis, I also do 3 pull ups with 40kg added (these are 'singles' of course !)

Otherwise, I do 50 - 60 swings @40, every day, and also about 20 presses @20 daily

I run twice a week for at least 15km in the woods (including plenty of hills)

I was amazed by your RoP results because it sounded like it could help me ! Now i am sure it will be !

Then, following RoP, should I drop or modify something ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...
@pet' , why 50 or 60 swings? Is that enough? Why not, 100, like in s&s? Thanx
 
Sauli said:
@pet' I think something like q&d snatch protocol + some farmer carries/holds and chinups could be good combination for OCR. And running naturally.

I did rop with 32kg and It made me feel like an athlete, but I think combining it with running could be too much.
Click to expand...

Sauli,

Myth/Legend; not quite. Too dumb to stop when it hurts; DEFINITELY!

Good job on doing RoP w/ the 32kg. I started it in 2008 but only made it to 5-ladders of 3. I did do the swings though. Like you, I felt like an athlete. For some, combining it w/ running is definitely too much. I think it depends on your body weight and running technique/experience/background. Perhaps jump rope on 'variety days' would be much better!

Agreed on the farmer carries, chin-ups (and pull-ups), plus the static holds/hangs. These very closely mimic the tasks asked of you in an OCR.


Eric
 
Hello,

@Eric Frohardt
Did you'pace' the C&P to get some aerobic training (so, slow enough to reduce rest to the minim) or did you do the rungs / ladders quite fast, with longer rest in between ?

@offwidth
I will tackle Beast in the French lointains.
Below is a link with the different obstacles:

Thank you all guys ! :)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
In my humble opinion, a lot has to do with the weight chosen. Example being I did the ROP mid last year with a 28 kg, purposely light for me to work on form and as a deload of sorts, I was able to do quite full variety days (trap bar work, dumbbell snatching etc). However when I did the ROP with a 40 kg, I was in no way able to add variety days other than dog walking!
 
pet' said:
Hello,

@Eric Frohardt
Did you'pace' the C&P to get some aerobic training (so, slow enough to reduce rest to the minim) or did you do the rungs / ladders quite fast, with longer rest in between ?

@offwidth
I will tackle Beast in the French lointains.
Below is a link with the different obstacles:

Thank you all guys ! :)

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...

Somedays, I tried to get it done as quick as possible. Other days, I tried to give myself enough rest. Just depended on how I felt and/or how much time I had.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom