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Kettlebell ROP Progression Question

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MarkSch

Level 6 Valued Member
A bit of background: I've completed Simple and the TTC with a pair of 24ks. I'm back to ROP, which is going much better with those two completed.

I've worked up to 5x5 on the heavy day with the 28K. 40K would be my target for 1/2 bodyweight press. I'm not that concerned about snatches, as I have just started even daring 24k for them, and I might never increase weight, only reps.

What's preferred for incorporating a heavier bell (32K) into the press ladders ? One part of the ROP says to "repeat the process", which might suggest dropping back to 3x3 on the heavy day, and using the new bell exclusively.

Or is it better to work the heavier bell partially into the lower ladders, say 1 and 2 reps with good form, and finish the ladders with the lighter bell? This might mean keeping the volume of 4 on the medium day and 5 on the heavy.

Also, should the arms vary in ladder weight? My strong arm is well behind my stronger arm when the weight increases, and I'm wondering how to keep both challenged.
 
IMO:
This a kind of "danger zone" with ROP. Andrew Read has commented on this, and it fits with my experience, that a lot of people are able to progress up to 32kg pretty smoothly doing ROP by the book, but then hit a wall and/or get beat up and injured using 32kg and above.

So I'd recommend being patient and progressing conservatively from this point.

A few options:
Stay at 5x5 with 28kg for a while to consolidate, compressing rest periods naturally as you are able. In other words, don't compress your rest periods on a schedule, but you will probably find that over time you can recover between sets faster.

Stay with 28kg and start doing ladders of 3, 5, 7.

Go back to 3x3 ladders and start adding in 32kg on the first rung of each ladder, then progress by using 32kg for the second and third rungs over time, before adding ladders and rungs.

There are lots of ways to cook it, but my general advice is just to be very patient.

As for the discrepancy between arms, just let your weaker (using that terminology for clarity) arm set the pace and don't worry about it.
 
@Steve W. has good thoughts for you. I will add mine below.

MarkSch said:
What's preferred for incorporating a heavier bell (32K) into the press ladders ?
Click to expand...
I like a few singles and doubles with a heavier weight during the ROP, e.g., you could have used 32 kg for some of the rungs of 1 and 2 _while_ doing your 28 kg ladder program. This isn't in the book, but it does work for most people who try it because by the time you're in the middle of the ROP, you're usually able to press 4 kg heavier for the rung of 1 without much trouble. Maybe you can press 8 kg higher - try it once or twice, after you're warmed up but before you're tired, for a single and see how it goes.

MarkSch said:
One part of the ROP says to "repeat the process", which might suggest dropping back to 3x3 on the heavy day, and using the new bell exclusively.
Click to expand...
For some people, this does work. My 1/2 bw press is 32 kg, and I got it by doing the ROP with 24 kg, with a few 28 kg singles and doubles, and then on test day, the 32 kg went up for me on both sides.

MarkSch said:
Or is it better to work the heavier bell partially into the lower ladders, say 1 and 2 reps with good form, and finish the ladders with the lighter bell? This might mean keeping the volume of 4 on the medium day and 5 on the heavy.
Click to expand...
Answered above.

MarkSch said:
Also, should the arms vary in ladder weight? My strong arm is well behind my stronger arm when the weight increases, and I'm wondering how to keep both challenged.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't worry about this at all. Spend your mental energy on figuring out _why_ your weaker side is weaker - see if you can fix the discrepancy with cueing and with form changes, e.g., grip the bell harder.

A few more thoughts:

@Steve W. mentions getting injured - if you get injured, it's your fault. The program isn't supposed to be done with a weight you can't already press at least 5 times. I'm pretty sure that, the first time I tried the ROP, I could press my chosen weight for 10 reps, and there's nothing wrong with using a 10RM weight for this program, either, IMO.

The volume at the end of the ROP can't be sustained by most people for very long, and trying to do so is asking for trouble. It's 3-month program that steps up the volume to a peak, after which you rest for a few days, you test, then you rest some more while you contemplate your next move.

You might consider asking to try one of the experimental programs we have here - you'll find a sticky thread from Craig Marker about this at the top of the Kettlebell forum. You may now be ready to go with a lower volume program to increase the peak, so to speak.

Did you test at the end of your 28 kg ROP? If so, what were your results? Please post everything you did on test day in terms of presses.

-S-
 
My thanks to everyone who responded. This kettlebell forum is basically daily reading for me, and all you people are the reason why. I really appreciate all the insights and help freely available here.
I should have originally mentioned that I tried to begin with ROP with 32K as my weight (after Simple and TTC), but did poorly. I went did a month at 28K to get my pressing groove ironed out again.


@Steve W.
That's an interesting perspective on the ROP at 32K and above. My first try at ROP stalled out at 24 K and some shaky 32K singles, and I was feeling pretty beat up. The jump was too much , in retrospect, and as I mentioned, I think the Simple and TTC plugged a lot of gaps in my technique and overall ability.
I'll listen to your advice to be patient: I'd really like to get a 1/2 body weight press, but it might not be possible in 12 weeks.

@Steve Freides
Thanks for the reminder about the program only being 3 months. I did it for too long the first time, which might have been part of my problem.
As to my strong arm, there's some hitch in my groove when my upper arm is coming parallel to the floor, and my clean isn't as good on that side.
I have not formally tested after 5x5 with the 28K yet. I just finished my 5x5 on 4/16. For now, in the spirit of patience, I will do my light and medium days with the 28, test on my next heavy day, and post my result.

Thanks again, everyone.
 
@MarkSch, if you've finished the program, you don't need to do light and medium days again, just test, and don't test as part of heavy day, just make it "test day" - you'll just warmup and test that day.

-S-
 
@Steve Freides ,
Sir, I think I missed something somewhere. ROP is meant to be a 3 month progression? Is this from knowledge gained after ETK was published? Sorry for the rookie question.

@MarkSch ,
Sir, IRT pressing, you got some GREAT advice here for moving up bells. If I may, I'd like to offer some insight I've gained from these two gentlemen, and the forum at large, for fixing "not as strong" side issues.
Like Mr. Freides mentioned, crush the handle, but with BOTH hands. As in, make a Really tight fist with your non working hand. SQUeeeeeze the glutes and try to get your knee caps to about groin level (from pulling them up so hard). For me, these cues worked wonders in evening out my sides. I realized I was just depending on my strong side to do the work, and hoping the weak side would catch up. If I hadn't stopped the leaks I would still be fighting asymmetrical strength.
I hope this helps, sir. And good luck.
 
Is the recommended MP groove the same as shown in ETK? These days I see a lot of people pressing keeping the arm more in front of the body than Pavel demonstrates in the book.

The main reason I ask is that I seem to get rotator cuff niggles when I press with my elbows too flared and they clear up if I keep them more forward. This often happens when I step up the Kg as my upward momentum struggles and my forearms flare to compensate and then I end up wrestling the bell to lockout. This has happened twice with the 32kg and I've had to rest then start over with the 24. I've just ordered a 28 to see if I can make the smaller jump and maintain the groove that I feel is more natural for me.

@Steve Friedes, I was also interested by the comment that ROP is a 3 month program
 
Rite of Passage, Heavy Days

Week 1: 3 x (1-2-3)
2: 4 x (1-2-3)
3: 5 x (1-2-3)
4: 1 x (1-2-3-4) & 4 x (1-2-3)
.
.
7: 4 x (1-2-3-4) & 1 x (1-2-3)
8: 5 x (1-2-3-4)
9: 1 x (1-2-3-4-5) & 4 x (1-2-3-4)
.
.
12: 4 x (1-2-3-4-5) & 1 x (1-2-3-4)
13: 5 x (1-2-3-4-5)

13 weeks is 3 months.

-S-
 
Wow that is funny that I never noticed the ROP is a 3 month program either. When you spell it out like that it seems so obvious. I can't remember exactly how long it took me to reach the 24 kg but I feel like my progress was slightly slower. Still haven't quite reached the 32. hopefully get back to that program soon.
 
wespom9 said:
Wow that is funny that I never noticed the ROP is a 3 month program either. When you spell it out like that it seems so obvious. I can't remember exactly how long it took me to reach the 24 kg but I feel like my progress was slightly slower. Still haven't quite reached the 32. hopefully get back to that program soon.
Click to expand...

It can be a 3 month program or you can turn it into a slow burn to ensure ownership of the movement
 
Mark is right. A slow burn to own the bell. Play with the heavier bell on variety days.

Or just do the 3 pressing days. As the weight gets heavier, more recovery is needed.

Andrew Read is also right, I owned the 32, but still the volume can get you fatigued and dinged up.
 
@Steve Freides
I haven't finished the ROP program: I am starting my fifth week of it. I was able to compress the time needed to get to 5x5 with the 28, while still feeling fairly fresh. I'm now trying to work in the 32K intelligently, and this thread is very helpful.

@Miguel
Those are all great cues. I will concentrate on them. Thanks!

@Mark Limbaga and @BrianCF
With all due respect, my first pass at the ROP went on and on and on, and I felt pretty beat up by the end, to little effect . I did go 16K to 24K (5x5) in the press, but never got more than a 32k or two. I never got close to going above 16K for the snatches. I think for me personally, ROP works better as a limited program. Currently, I also felt much better after completing Simple and TTC. I can do 2 32k/ 8 40K TGUs in under 10 minutes, but my press still needs work, obviously.
 
I will respectfully disagree with the advice to use a template like the ROP to "own" the weight by staying with it longer and trying to compress the rest periods or trying to do anything else with that kind of volume.

The end of the ROP features quite a high volume - the weekly volume in the last 4 weeks is 140, 145, 150, 155, which is about 600 presses, and that's per side, in 4 weeks. That's a _lot_ of pressing, sure to burn out some people, perhaps even many or most people, if kept up for long.

A quick review of the math:

Final week ROP (all numbers per side):

Heavy = 5 x (1-2-3-4-5) = 5 x 15 = 75
Medium = 5 x (1-2-3-4) = 5 x 10 = 50
Light = 5 x (1-2-3) = 5 x 6 = 30
=========================================
155 presses


Note that the previous 4 weeks are 87, 91, 95, then the big jump to 125. Those four weeks together are about 400 (again, per side), which is a much more sustainable number. The first 4 weeks are a great ramp up to the higher volume.

If you are smart, and if you feel you've gotten into the ROP a little bit above your head, stick with ladders to 4 on your heavy day, compress rest periods there, and get ready for a final 5-week push with ladders to 5, followed by a rest, a test, and some well-deserved time off.

Even better, don't just stick with ladders to 4, use weeks 6 through 9 of the template.

Here are your Heavy Days:

6: 3 x (1-2-3-4) & 2 x (1-2-3) = 42
7: 4 x (1-2-3-4) & 1 x (1-2-3) = 46
8: 5 x (1-2-3-4) = 50
9: 1 x (1-2-3-4-5) & 4 x (1-2-3-4) = 55

Your weeks 6 - 9 will total (H + M + L shown):

6: 42 + 30 + 15 = 87
7: 46 + 30 + 15 = 91
8: 50 + 30 + 15 = 95
9: 55 + 50 + 30 = 125

Take a week off, then repeat the above. 125 + 95 + 91 + 87 = ~400. When you're ready, go right from week #9 through to the end of the program, a final 4-week push plus your test.

Not everything you might wish to know about the ROP could possibly be in the book - the program is brilliant, and now that it's been out there for a few years, we can look at it and understand it even better.

I don't understand why the references to the 32 kg bell - it's just another size weight. No one can just add weight forever - that this fact becomes evident with a 32 kg bell while attempting the ROP is just a reflection of how strong or not people are at the time.

For most people, most of the time, if you start with the weight you're supposed to start with, you can finish the program in 13 weeks plus testing time.

NB: I attended PlanStrong and I will attend for a second time this July. Much of what I learned there you see applied above - I thank Pavel very much for what I learned; any mistakes are mine.

[Edit] to fix a math mistake, thanks to the Boss for pointing it out to me.

-S-
 
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Steve Freides said:
I don't understand why the references to the 32 kg bell - it's just another size weight. No one can just add weight forever - that this fact becomes evident with a 32 kg bell while attempting the ROP is just a reflection of how strong or not people are at the time.

For most people, most of the time, if you start with the weight you're supposed to start with, you can finish the program in 13 weeks plus testing time.
-S-
Click to expand...

First, I think Steve's larger analysis of ROP above is great. It makes a lot of sense and should be stickied in some way. It's one of those "not in the book, but should be" posts.

But to address the section above, the reference to 32kg is that this seems to be the weight where a lot of people do run into problems and need to start cooking the program in ways that are not strictly by the book. They can complete the end of the ROP progression comfortably and on schedule with 24kg, then test and get 5 reps with the 32. But by Steve's definition of "the weight you're supposed to start with," 32kg turns out NOT the right weight.

Yes, "that this fact becomes evident with a 32 kg bell while attempting the ROP is just a reflection of how strong or not people are at the time." But it seems that a lot of people (admittedly not rigorously counted, but subjectively in my experience and observation, and mentioned by Andrew Read as well) fall into this situation with this weight.

I think the suggestions Steve gives above can help a lot of these people.
 
captain slow said:
Is the recommended MP groove the same as shown in ETK? These days I see a lot of people pressing keeping the arm more in front of the body than Pavel demonstrates in the book.

The main reason I ask is that I seem to get rotator cuff niggles when I press with my elbows too flared and they clear up if I keep them more forward.
Click to expand...
Press how it feels best to you - what you describe, a more straight-to-the-front groove, is just fine, no worries. Post a video if you like but I don't think you need to, just remember that your fist has to be lower than your chin at the start and your knees locked throughout.

Steve W. said:
First, I think Steve's larger analysis of ROP above is great. It makes a lot of sense and should be stickied in some way. It's one of those "not in the book, but should be" posts.
Click to expand...
Thanks very much, @Steve W.

As to the 32 kg, I guess we could say it has to do with what people typically weigh and how much strength they can acquire relatively easily. For me, completing the ROP with 24 kg has gotten me a 32 kg single, but I have never felt strong enough after doing the ROP with 24 kg to attempt a 28 kg ROP - I could get 2-3 reps w/ 28 kg, and since that's not the recommended 5-8 RM range (and as I've said before, I think doing it with a 10RM weight is also fine), I've never tried it.

-S-
 
Awesome @Steve Freides !

I read and re-read the book and the last few times through I have organically done what you LAID OUT PLAIN and SIMPLE up there.

Also I agree with you when you get to the 5x(1,2,3,4,5) you need to back off as that is some high volume.

Great stuff. I was so excited when I owned the 24kg so well that the 32kg went up easy.
 
I have added a link to this thread to the Sticky of Stickies at the top of this forum.

-S-
 
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