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Kettlebell ROP Rest and Workout Timeline

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Brian Johnston

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Elite Certified Instructor
Looking for thoughts and scientific backup on rest periods for pressing portion of ROP.

With combined wisdom of bro-science, my available fitness texts, and anecdotal experience I've aimed to keep my total time for ROP to under an hour for each workout. Some of my thoughts and brief research that lead to this goal are below. The math ends up as follows:
10-15min warm-up
>30min C&P ladders
2-12min pulls
3-18min cool-down
For those of you that have worked through ROP, I think you'll agree that the 5 ladders with 5 rungs each in half an hour is ambitious if your weight is challenging. If we do a little rough math and assume 1:00 for 10 reps, the 5x(1,2,3,4,5) requires at least 15minutes of work, leaving <15min for rest, or an average of <36 seconds of rest between each rung.
I'm not even to the full 5x(1,2,3,4,5) yet at my current weight, but I have a feeling if I can keep up I won't be leaving anything in the tank by the last rung of each ladder.

Am I setting myself up to fail as the program progresses by keeping my (arguably arbitrary) timeline?
Should I just let the workout can run as long as it needs to, sacrificing time in order to "stay fresh"?

I fully recognize that ETK says short, long, or somewhere in between you will get stronger for different reasons. Either building muscle through shorter rest or building the skill of strength with longer rests. "Why complicate?" But if I give myself the benefit of the doubt and assume my form is solid (there is certainly some doubt) and my gains available courtesy of skill improvement are limited or at least harder to come by, I would argue that building muscle should be my primary goal to increase strength.
To that end I've spent a little time looking through available material for how quickly I should aim to do my ROP. What I've found is that, generally, it is recommended to keep workout to less than an hour.
1. Bro-science claims that Eastern Bloc scientists determined 45 minutes to be the optimum workout length for testosterone production and strength development, with both measures plummeting after about the 60minute mark. Unfortunately, I could not find the academic article on which this assertion is based.
2. What I could find was that manuals from USAW, NSCA, and Crossfit either explicitly or implicitly adhere to the maxim of 45-60minutes for strength training. With the exception of ROP, the Pavel programs I have ready access to (PM, PTP, GTG, and S&S) are all short and intense with the expectation of huge strength gains given adherence to the program.
3. Anecdotally, I and the people that have written training for me have always stuck to an hour being the ideal.
There are caveats for each of these but I'm choosing to move on without addressing them for the sake of brevity. We can discuss in the comments if necessary.
 
if I give myself the benefit of the doubt and assume my form is solid (there is certainly some doubt) and my gains available courtesy of skill improvement are limited or at least harder to come by, I would argue that building muscle should be my primary goal to increase strength.
I don't buy that argument at all. There is much to be gained by improving one's skill at any lift. That skill improvement might be hard to come by, well, if you need a shoulder to cry on, don't look at me. :) Seriously, do the program as it's written. How heavy the weight is for you will determine what your minimum rest periods can be - that's one thing. And if you're looking for hypertrophy, consider grabbing a bar and bench pressing instead, or overhead pressing with a barbell, or using two kettlebells but choose another program. There are plenty of ways to get bigger and pressing a single kettlebell overhead wouldn't be at the top of most lists.

We won't even get into trying to do 150 presses in 30 minutes.

-S-
 
For what it’s worth:

I am about halfway through my first cycle with my 10RM (starting) weight of 16kg. I’m time constrained, training at 5 a.m. immediately upon rising, and I need to be out the door for work at 6:30.

This week I did 4 ladders to 4 and 1 ladder to 3. I did them on the 7:00, rungs 1-2 without rest, brief rest before rung 3, then a bit longer until rung 4, and about 1:30 before the next ladder. So that’s 35 minutes. When I get to rungs to 5, I’m planning to give myself 9:00 per rung for 45 minutes total.

I do the S&S warmup (halos and goblet squats) which is 5 minutes max. But the first press ladder is an extension of my warmup, to be honest. Swings/snatches are 2-12 minutes at the end, and I stretch later in the day.

My current ladder times:
2 rungs: 3:00 x 5 = 15:00 session
3 rungs: 5:00 x 5 = 25:00 session
4 rungs: 7:00 x 5 = 35:00 session
5 rungs: 9:00 (estimated) = 45:00 session

I expect I will need more time per ladder next cycle (24kg), such as +1-2 minutes especially in the higher rungs. That may mean splitting the Heavy day between morning and evening sessions. As I don’t anticipate getting 10 reps left and right (closer to 5-7 I imagine) with 24kg at the end of this 16kg cycle.
 
@Mark Limbaga I’ve considered doing just that. On my log I’ve started calculating my reps per minute so I have the option of measuring progress in terms of increased intensity until I can make my time hacks.

@Steve Freides I will never deny my form can always use work, hence my certainty of doubt.
 
@Sean M My timeline is similar, 0530-0630 workout blocks on most business days. Warm ups are usually S&S plus some band work then C&P to working weight. All told it’s usually closer to 10 min than 15.
I’m in to my last ladder at my current weight. Finished a medium day of four rungs in 26:40 this morning; slightly off my 5:00 per ladder goal for the day.
I appreciate the input. Other folks’ figures and fuzzy estimates will definitely help me calibrate my own goals as I’m in uncharted personal territory.
 
But if I give myself the benefit of the doubt and assume my form is solid (there is certainly some doubt) and my gains available courtesy of skill improvement are limited or at least harder to come by, I would argue that building muscle should be my primary goal to increase strength.

Compared to lifts such as the barbell snatch, barbell C&J, and even the squat, the one-arm KB press is not that complicated. I would probably agree with your assumption that your form in this lift is "solid." However, "strength skill" is more than just "good form" or "technique."

Good article here by Christian Thibaudeau on what exactly is meant by "strength skill."

Russian Strength-Skill: The Workouts | T Nation
 
Just a question to the guys doing RoP right now.
Do you just do the C&Ps or add pullups?

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For those who seek a guideline how much time a RoP session should take.
Let's do the math :D

One C&P shouldn't take you longer than 4-5sec per rep.
The heaviest possible day in the RoP is 5x (1,2,3,4,5), which adds up to 75 reps. Times 2 to account for both hands and we're at 150 reps.
150 reps x 4-5sec = 10:00-12:30min
A pullup shouldn't take longer than 4-5sec either. On the heavy day you'd be adding 75 pullups.
75 reps x 4-5sec = 5:00-6:15min
C&Ps + pullups together add up to 15:00-18:45min of total working time.
Also note that 4-5sec per rep is generous, 3-4sec per rep would be realistic IMO.

Let's get to the rest periods.
On the heavy day you have 5 ladders. Which means you have 5 rest periods between ladders (the fifth rest period after the last ladder is the time you spend resting before you start the 2-12min ballistics).
Rest time between ladders shouldn't take longer than 4-5min.
5 x 4-5min = 20:00-25:00min

There's also rest between rungs.
With 5 rungs you end up with 4 rest peroids between rungs (the rest period after the fifth rung is the 4-5min between ladders -> 1rep/rest/2reps/rest/3reps/rest/4reps/rest/5reps -> ladder finished, rest between ladders begins)
You shouldn't have to rest more than 30-60sec, between rungs. Yes, maybe there's a bit more rest between rung 4 and 5, but rest between rung 1 and 2 should be less. The average of 30-60sec is apropriate.
5 rungs with 4 30-60sec rest periods between rungs -> 5 x 4 x 30-60sec = 10:00-20:00min

Putting it all together we end up with the following:
Time working: 15:00-18:45min
Rest between ladders: 20:00-25:00min
Rest between rungs: 10:00-20:00min
Adding it all together we get 45:00-63:45min.
Adding 12min of ballistics we're at 57:00-65:45min.
Let's even add 10:00min of warm-up and cool-down. That's 77:00-85:45min.

---> That's less than 90min*** for the absolute heaviest day there possibly is in the RoP and even accountig for warm-up, cool-down and added pullups.
Most of the sessions are over a lot quicker.
In the beginning most of your sessions won't take longer than 30-50min.

If you can't complete a rep in 4-5sec or less, need to rest more than 60sec (on average) between rungs and rest more than 5min between ladders, sorry you chose a weight that's too heavy and should have went with a lighter KB.

***I know you spend some seconds walking between the KB and the pullup bar and stuff like that, but according to the calculations you still have more than 4min for that and still end up with only ~90min.
Let's keep in mind that this calculation is about the average to give a guideline and not about definite numbers.

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@Brian Johnston
The warm-up and cool-down time is a concern for the total time you spend with your sessions yes, but it doesn't count for the recommended 45-60min strength training regarding testosterone production, strength gains etc.
Only the "real" strength session (in this case the C&P + pullup ladders & 2-12min ballistics) counts here.
Looking at my calculation from above you're at ~55-65min for the "real" strength session, which is almost exactly on point for the 45-60min recommendation.
My calculation was for the absolute heaviest possible RoP day, therefore the average is more in the 30-50min area, which again is well within the recommendation.
 
@Kettlebelephant Not doing pull-ups in C&P ladders, but I’m running Daily Dose Deadlift in the evening and do one after every deadlift, so I’m getting ~25 pull-ups a week that way. I didn’t want to bite off more than I could chew for my first go at it, and I’m time constrained.
 
@Brian Johnston
I wouldn't worry one bit about total workout time. Full heavy day ladders are going to take awhile. With a challenging bell, I tend toward generous rest periods and trying to stay relatively fresh. I want to be be able to make the reps in good form, without struggling or feeling wiped out. In practice, this means rest of AT LEAST a number of minutes equal to the number of reps in the previous set (and often more, going by feel).

How heavy the weight is for you will determine what your minimum rest periods can be

+1. I've also done what @Mark Limbaga suggests and repeat a given heavy day until I am able to do it at a lower level of perceived effort with shorter rest periods. But I don't systematically compress the rest periods on a schedule or even specifically keep track of them. I just go by feel and take the rest I need, which becomes less over time.

There is much to be gained by improving one's skill at any lift.

However, "strength skill" is more than just "good form" or "technique."

+1. There's the outward form/technique where the lift looks like it's supposed to, and the inner form of skill in generating tension appropriate (in amount, pattern and timing) to the lift. There is often A LOT of potential for improvement in the latter over a long period of time.

There are plenty of ways to get bigger and pressing a single kettlebell overhead wouldn't be at the top of most lists.

Yes, if hypertrophy is your primary goal. If you want to improve your KB MP and build a little muscle along the way, ROP is a fine program, and @Mark Limbaga's suggestion about step cycling the heavy day is very appropriate.

All that being said, there are practical reasons why you might not want your heavy day to drag on so long. My solution is to split the heavy day swings to the next day, and I've also treated the ROP as a stand alone pressing program and programmed my ballistics separately (not necessarily by the book).

Edit: Another way to reduce your session length is to forgo any warm up. It really isn't necessary. The S&S "warm up" exercises are a great complement to ROP as well, but I think of them as just that, complementary exercises to round out the program, not a specific warm up to the main exercises. You can do any mobility/flexibility/complementary exercises you want after the main exercises, in a separate session, or on separate days.
 
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Also note that 4-5sec per rep is generous, 3-4sec per rep would be realistic IMO.

I'm curious about this one - I wait at least a second or 2 in the rack after the clean, before even starting the press, to make sure I'm tight and stable - no momentum being carried from the clean. Then I lock out at the top of the press for a second. All told, I would guess my average time per rep is probably more like 6 seconds. Getting down to 3-4 seconds would seem to me like a more ballistic movement than I would think this should be.

I agree with the rest of the analysis, though.
 
The ideal C&P features about a 1-second pause in the rack, without any fidgeting and without another inhale. This allows you to use the tension from catching the clean in your press.

-S-
 
@Mark Limbaga I got my terms mixed up without my book in front of me. I've started measuring DENSITY as a possible performance measure.

@MikeTheBear I definitely concur, there's a lot to be gained through strength skill and I'm not unfamiliar with the concept. I was making the assumption and argument to drive the conversation a certain way, not to in any way assert my infallibility. That T-nation article is a little longer than I was prepared for last night so I'll work through it today. Thank you for the recommendation.

@Kettlebelephant I am not doing pull-ups with my ROP. My timeline doesn't allow the extra work right now. I generally work them in as part of a variety day, doing a few sets of very heavy pull-ups. Once I complete my current ROP I'm planning to work the pull-ups in at the next weight since the number of rungs will come down. Then start waking up earlier so I'm complete before 0630.
I don't disagree with any of your math, but I think the estimate will be slightly off in practice. I agree with @WhatWouldHulkDo, I take a moment or two between the clean and the press to get right and make sure my rep is strong. Since I've started watching my times my rung of 4 takes about :48 and the one rung of 5 I've done during this iterations took just under 1:00. Even with that consideration 45:00 to complete the longest day would be a pretty comfortable pace IMO.

@Steve W. my reasons for wanting to keep the workout short are definitely practical in nature, but I'm not opposed to "making time" to complete a workout as prescribed if I have to. However, if I can get appropriate results with a shorter workout, I will absolutely go for it. My personal goals are to complete the ROP; .5BW MP, 200 snatch in 10:00@24kg. Hypertrophy and movement toward other strength goals via WTH are just happy coincidence.
 
@Brian Johnston I wasn't criticizing. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page in terms of what we meant by the term "skill." Some days ago @Steve Freides and I had a discussion on the term "technique." His definition was broader than mine. I don't want to reopen that debate. After re-reading Thibaudeau's article I like the term "strength skill."

I like how @Steve W. broke it down:

There's the outward form/technique where the lift looks like it's supposed to

When I use the term "technique," or "lifting technique," or "form," this is what I mean. It's whether you're lifting the bar/implement correctly. In my definition, "technique" is specific to the lift. Depending on the lift, this "outward form" can be mastered quickly. As I said, the KB press is not that complicated, so it is very possible that your "lifting technique" on the press was indeed solid.

and the inner form of skill in generating tension appropriate (in amount, pattern and timing) to the lift.

@Steve Freides puts this in the same category as "technique." However, based on my definition that technique is lift-specific, I think this "inner form" is a more general adaptation and crosses over into overall "strength skill." For instance, generating tension is useful for just about all lifts, not just the press. Now, generating tension in a bench press will be different from generating tension in a standing press, so to that extent, this "inner form" moves over into lift-specific technique. The "inner form" is a fluid concept.

The inner and outward forms are things that a lifter can consciously control. For example, a lifter can go to a coach to learn the proper way to perform a complex lift, then work on some drills to establish the correct movement pattern. The lifter can consciously control how much tension is produced in the muscles during the lift.

I would add a third category and call it "physiological factors." Thibaudeau's article lists the following as components of strength skill: maximal fast-twitch fiber recruitment in a single effort, intramuscular and intermuscular coordination, and neurological inhibition.

I would consider these the "physiological factors." You cannot control these consciously. Rather, these are developed through frequent lifting. These are the most general adaptations as they can carry over to other activities. This is why Thibaudeau's uncle was able to pull a 500 lbs. deadlift on his first try without ever having done the lift (read the article for the anecdote).

Put all of these together and you have "strength skill."
 
Compared to lifts such as the barbell snatch, barbell C&J, and even the squat, the one-arm KB press is not that complicated. I would probably agree with your assumption that your form in this lift is "solid." However, "strength skill" is more than just "good form" or "technique."

Good article here by Christian Thibaudeau on what exactly is meant by "strength skill."

Russian Strength-Skill: The Workouts | T Nation

Nice article, but its very old news. Also I believe strength gained through manual labor is very limited.

Without any knowledge on how to maintain good posture, lubricate joints and how to pick up objects its very destructive even.
 
@Steve Freides puts this in the same category as "technique." However, based on my definition that technique is lift-specific, I think this "inner form" is a more general adaptation and crosses over into overall "strength skill." For instance, generating tension is useful for just about all lifts, not just the press. Now, generating tension in a bench press will be different from generating tension in a standing press, so to that extent, this "inner form" moves over into lift-specific technique. The "inner form" is a fluid concept. ...

One of the reasons for so much "what the heck" effect around here is this "inner form" you mention, IMHO.

-S-
 
So I unintentionally pushed a few buttons with my original post and asked @Steve Freides for a private message so I could work out his specific thoughts on my suggestion. The gestalt of the conversation is that by placing a time-limit, arbitrary or science based, on the ROP I would almost certainly break an already successful program. With the slight concession that I could "... try what you're suggesting but be mindful of lapses in good form as you lift without being fully recovered from the previous reps and sets, and please abandon the program if you feel you're putting yourself at risk of injury rather than forcing yourself to try to complete it at all costs."

Certainly good advice I thought worth sharing.
 
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