James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
I'd also like to make the argument here that identifying variables and holding variables constant is a critical aspect of a scientific approach.
Kettlebell ROP support group
- Thread starter gibbertron
- Start date
MikeL
Level 6 Valued Member
Concur that changing the variable is unscientific. But if the regression (in this instance a row) is run for the full program, for that person, the variable is not changed.
I suppose it’s where do you draw the line between two exercises/movement patterns. A row is clearly not a vertical/near vertical pull, but it does share some mechanics. Then again I’ve been getting people to sub pull ups with body weight rows (various angles), banded pull ups etc for years. If you can add weight to scale up, surely reducing weight can scale down.
I appreciate the hard won experience Pavel has given the community with ROP, it’s a great program. I will point out that the language and attitude of his writing etc are of “hard muscle”, “being a real man” / “person forged by iron and hard work” etc (not direct quotes, trying to put across the sentiment) - I appreciate this, it links well to my fostered “infectious optimism and that offensive eagerness that comes from hard physical training” (Montgomery). However for it to be accessible, scaling should be considered for individual athletes. I might love the attitude of forging real strength through heaving your body 75 times (end of ROP) coupled with heavy C&Ps, finished with some heavy arse swings having rolled dice earning 12 minutes of punishment, and I think many people can do it, but I’ll not expect everyone to do that; some people should be able to scale whilst keeping the feeling of the program, the sentiment perhaps is a better word. They’ll still be stronger, but they’ll also be successful.
Finally, as it’s an optional exercise anyway, adding a pull would augment the program, rather than takes away from it. Pull ups are absolutely king and I completely agree with their championing. But better something than nothing, if the athlete needs , in my opinion.
I suppose it’s where do you draw the line between two exercises/movement patterns. A row is clearly not a vertical/near vertical pull, but it does share some mechanics. Then again I’ve been getting people to sub pull ups with body weight rows (various angles), banded pull ups etc for years. If you can add weight to scale up, surely reducing weight can scale down.
I appreciate the hard won experience Pavel has given the community with ROP, it’s a great program. I will point out that the language and attitude of his writing etc are of “hard muscle”, “being a real man” / “person forged by iron and hard work” etc (not direct quotes, trying to put across the sentiment) - I appreciate this, it links well to my fostered “infectious optimism and that offensive eagerness that comes from hard physical training” (Montgomery). However for it to be accessible, scaling should be considered for individual athletes. I might love the attitude of forging real strength through heaving your body 75 times (end of ROP) coupled with heavy C&Ps, finished with some heavy arse swings having rolled dice earning 12 minutes of punishment, and I think many people can do it, but I’ll not expect everyone to do that; some people should be able to scale whilst keeping the feeling of the program, the sentiment perhaps is a better word. They’ll still be stronger, but they’ll also be successful.
Finally, as it’s an optional exercise anyway, adding a pull would augment the program, rather than takes away from it. Pull ups are absolutely king and I completely agree with their championing. But better something than nothing, if the athlete needs , in my opinion.
James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
I'm honestly not sure how I feel about extending the "sentiment" of the program by scaling for folks who aren't ready for the program or shouldn't be participating. I use this plan for students who have the specific goal of increasing their KB press. I've honestly never considered that a program's accessibility be an indication of its quality because of a student's need to feel included. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? Are you using this in groups? If my students aren't ready for this plan I don't bring it up as an option. We'd build GPP/GSP and those plans for me would not resemble RoP. I'd be generating a custom GPP plan with input from a movement screen etc.
Maybe I've misunderstood you're post. Let me know your thoughts.
Maybe I've misunderstood you're post. Let me know your thoughts.
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
I went to a forum to try to figure out why my chili didn't come out right. Most of the discussion was about whether it was acceptable that I substituted the saltines in my cabinet for the optional oyster crackers, and the general philosophy of what is meant by a recipe. 
In all seriousness, thanks to everyone. I said I would appreciate any advice, and I meant it.
Here's my plan:
1) Take the rest of the week off from presses
2) Test my 16kg C&P on Monday
2a) If I hit five **good** reps, I'll repeat the first four weeks at 16kg
2b) If I don't see real improvement, I'll swallow my pride and run ROP at 12kg
In all seriousness, thanks to everyone. I said I would appreciate any advice, and I meant it.
Here's my plan:
1) Take the rest of the week off from presses
2) Test my 16kg C&P on Monday
2a) If I hit five **good** reps, I'll repeat the first four weeks at 16kg
2b) If I don't see real improvement, I'll swallow my pride and run ROP at 12kg
James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
Ha! I think this is an apt metaphor actually. Not to belabor the point, but I attended a seminar by a high-level guy in the industry and he described his programming system with a cookie baking metaphor. Changing almost anything about the recipe, even in some cases by a tiny bit, will result in bad cookies. Follow the recipe.I went to a forum to try to figure out why my chili didn't come out right. Most of the discussion was about whether it was acceptable that I substituted the saltines in my cabinet for the optional oyster crackers, and the general philosophy of what is meant by a recipe.
I think your action plan makes sense.
MikeL
Level 6 Valued Member
A lot of people use the program on their own, away from a coach.
I’m not programming ROP for anyone that’s not me or my wife... not an SFG (yet... come on COVID, but il not use the plan until I am qualified in the MO), but I can see myself using it in a group environment for sure. I currently feel like I’d be confident to scale as necessary based on the individual athlete.
marvinthemartian
Level 5 Valued Member
@Eric Wilson : I did a quick 6 week program that used RoP style ladders with a 16kg KB for C&P and even though it felt really light at the beginning and I was handling the 28kg KB for S&S just fine the heavy days became challenging towards the end. You might discover that even the "light" 12kg KB can give you a good press workout working up to 75 reps per arm! But as long as you can recover from your workouts with the 16kg KB you can just stick what you are doing right now and add a rep here and there when you feel ready.
MikeL
Level 6 Valued Member
I’ll add, completely concur for an individual being coached 1:1 I would not recommend ROP if they couldn’t complete it or their individual goals did not line up. In a group setting, I see it being a good basis for a class - and up front, that environment is military.
barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
I agree with you. Modifying a program is OK if done with the help of a competent instructor. Most times our own personal experience is not enough. Chances are we have some form issues or biases that stuck with us for years.
In general, sometimes a given program or concept may not be the optimum version that its creator would have liked. Maybe he/she just needed to have it accessible to the widest possible audience. However, the broader its reach the more it deserves to be second guessed by certain sub-audiences. The infamous Body Mass Index comes to mind.
Pavel did show a glimpse of his design thought process in his Q&D book. For example, explaining doing away with dips and VPPs; he mentioned they're both equally valid moves for Q&D but not equally accessible (would require direct coaching and/or certain prerequisite mobilities) as swings, pushups and snatches.
As for rows vs. pullups, neither rows nor even band assisted pullups helped me get my first pullup... and I tried both for years. There is a tricky nuance to engaging the lats to rotate the scapulae that both moves failed to unlock for me. What really worked were negative pullups... use a chair to get to top position then free your legs and hang for dear life as you lower yourself slowly.
LarryB
Level 7 Valued Member
Can you expand on these pull techniques at all, or point me to resources? I’m experiencing elbow pain as well. I have another thread going on it right now but it’s more about fixing my clean and snatch on the right side. I’d be interested to hear more about the pull up though. Thanks.
Dayz
Level 8 Valued Member
@Eric Wilson
You can always run the Soju and Tuba program to help you transition to ROP with the 16. It only takes a few weeks. Lots of people do that when going up a bell.
You can always run the Soju and Tuba program to help you transition to ROP with the 16. It only takes a few weeks. Lots of people do that when going up a bell.
Kiacek
Level 8 Valued Member
Directed at @Eric Wilson :
I see you already made up your mind about how to choose whether to use the 16 or 12, but I thought that I would share @Steve Freides advice that I have found to be amazing. Basically, you go through a preparatory cycle of ROP with a lighter weight in about half the time a normal cycle takes (6 weeks instead of 13) before embarking on a proper ROP cycle:
Not directed at @Eric Wilson (but rather to join the conversation on Rows with ROP). Pavel has said that using Rows instead of Pull-ups with ROP ends up being to much work for the back:
I see you already made up your mind about how to choose whether to use the 16 or 12, but I thought that I would share @Steve Freides advice that I have found to be amazing. Basically, you go through a preparatory cycle of ROP with a lighter weight in about half the time a normal cycle takes (6 weeks instead of 13) before embarking on a proper ROP cycle:
Steve Freides said:
Not directed at @Eric Wilson (but rather to join the conversation on Rows with ROP). Pavel has said that using Rows instead of Pull-ups with ROP ends up being to much work for the back:
Troch Asking said:
Pavel Responding said:
MikeL
Level 6 Valued Member
Those last quotes are valuable for this discussion, thanks for sharing them; and they link to a question/observation I made earlier about perhaps it’s because of the stimulus from cleans and swings - this does sound like a valid reason to advise against rowing as the stress is in a similar direction at times (indeed the low pull of the elbow creates a very similar action to the row).
James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
This is great. Thank you for posting this.
James Sullivan
Level 6 Valued Member
Yes. I've been working with @Geoff Neupert using his P3 / SKS program for about 8 months and what he calls performance neck nods for 6 months or so. The idea is to work on bettering nerve innervation in that area for me before starting a training session. As far as actual pull-up technique at set-up it's 1) set your grip heavily on the lower pinky side of your hand 2) set proper head position 3) squeeze your shoulder blades together (rhomboids) 4) squeeze your glutes to reinforce hollow position 5) pull up from that same lower pinky side grip.
Eric Wilson
Level 6 Valued Member
marvinthemartian
Level 5 Valued Member
Do you know what kind of rows Pavel is talking about? I did 16kg C&P and 20kg one arm row with my supporting arms elbow on my knee and it felt like a great combo.
Kiacek
Level 8 Valued Member
Troch had asked 2 more questions in his post, the second was about which type to do:
So it would seem that Pavel's answer was a blanket no.Troch said:
On the other hand, Master SFG Jason Marshall has said that he did Lawnmower Rows (with 48-56kg) during ROP instead of Pullups when he was first working towards certification:
Of course, he was already a beast when he did ROP, so I'm not sure whether this counts as a counter point or not.Jason Marshall said:
mar2safety
Level 6 Valued Member
I also have been doing this. Today was Heavy day week 12, so a total of 70 reps per arm, first 20k C&P then 28k 1 arm row. I know it's not in the book, so I'm not technically ROP, but this combo has worked for me. I like the unilateral push followed by the unilateral pull. If fatigue was ever an issue, I'd probably stop doing them beyond (1,2,3) and just rest after sets of 4 or 5 C&Ps.