Other/Mixed RPE for strength ladders

[fabskl]

Hi everyone,

I have a question about strength ladders, especially the ones used in Plan Strong and Built Strong plans: What RPE (rate of perceived exertion, on a scale of 1-10) or RIR (reps in reserve) should the top reps have? So for example in (2,3,5) ladders how heavy should the 5s feel? A RPE of 7, so basically 3 reps more could be done, and make it a 8RM weight (with no fatigue from 2 and 3 reps before, or a 10RM with fatigue), or should it be a RPE of 8 or 9?

And would there be a difference when training for strength or hypertrophy?

One of the reasons I ask is that many programs have different RM ranges for the specific ladders, some use 7-10RM for (2,3,5) ladders, or 2/3 of your RM, or 90% of 5TRM, and so on. But since your RM may not be representative of your performance in the ladders, that would be a nice way to test if you selected the right weight-ladder combination.

 

[Pete L]

Hi everyone,

I have a question about strength ladders, especially the ones used in Plan Strong and Built Strong plans: What RPE (rate of perceived exertion, on a scale of 1-10) or RIR (reps in reserve) should the top reps have? So for example in (2,3,5) ladders how heavy should the 5s feel? A RPE of 7, so basically 3 reps more could be done, and make it a 8RM weight (with no fatigue from 2 and 3 reps before, or a 10RM with fatigue), or should it be a RPE of 8 or 9?

And would there be a difference when training for strength or hypertrophy?

One of the reasons I ask is that many programs have different RM ranges for the specific ladders, some use 7-10RM for (2,3,5) ladders, or 2/3 of your RM, or 90% of 5TRM, and so on. But since your RM may not be representative of your performance in the ladders, that would be a nice way to test if you selected the right weight-ladder combination.

My experience is that later sets have far fewer reps in reserve. Sometimes worryingly so.
Normally because I've compressed the rest too much but also just down to the impact of volume. Your 5TRM will be different to that for 5x5 after all.
The first time I ran Victorious II I missed a couple of reps. I'm on Victorious I again currently and have had to dig deep to squeeze out the last reps of a few sets.
I'm hoping this will translate well to when I test my 1RM at the end of the cycle!

 

[fabskl]

I experience the same with later sets, if technique is right the RPE will go up by around .5 for every ladder, and I always keep the rest at 1,2 and 3 min.

But I am not quite sure what the right effort for the desired adaptions would be. If it was straight sets and a linear progression I would start the reps at RPE 7 and increase to 9 or 10 in the following weeks, with a deload after that. But because you have the low reps in the ladders and also volume is waved per week and month I really don't know what the intended effort should be.

 

[renegadenate]

If I'm using 2-3-5 Ladders, I typically use a weight I can perform 6-8 perfect reps with.

On BuiltStrong Minimalist, the spreadsheet will chose the correct ladders based on your RM so that it aligns with the 2/3rd's rule.

For example, a 10RM will result in 3-4-7 Ladders. A 7-8RM will almost always be 2-3-5 Ladders (sometimes a 7RM will be 2-3-4 Ladders and an 8-9RM will be 2-4-6 Ladders). A 4-5RM will be 1-2-3 Ladders.

 

[fabskl]

If I'm using 2-3-5 Ladders, I typically use a weight I can perform 6-8 perfect reps with.

On BuiltStrong Minimalist, the spreadsheet will chose the correct ladders based on your RM so that it aligns with the 2/3rd's rule.

For example, a 10RM will result in 3-4-7 Ladders. A 7-8RM will almost always be 2-3-5 Ladders (sometimes a 7RM will be 2-3-4 Ladders and an 8-9RM will be 2-4-6 Ladders). A 4-5RM will be 1-2-3 Ladders.

That's kind of my point, what is a "perfect rep"? Do you stop counting when rep speed changes, or technique or something else? For me RPE is much easier to measure than "perfect reps" (because I am more used to it), and since I am going to do a certain ladder why not directly measure it there.

Also, I am just curious what the intended effort is?

@renegadenate Can you give a RPE measure on your first top rep?

 

[renegadenate]

That's kind of my point, what is a "perfect rep"? Do you stop counting when rep speed changes, or technique or something else? For me RPE is much easier to measure than "perfect reps" (because I am more used to it), and since I am going to do a certain ladder why not directly measure it there.

Also, I am just curious what the intended effort is?

@renegadenate Can you give a RPE measure on your first top rep?

I don't use RPE for my lifts. I stick with percentages and how close to technical failure I am. A "perfect" set of reps is the total number of reps I can perform before my form breaks or I may not get the next rep.

For example, I can perform 9 reps of a 1-arm kettlebell press with 20kg. I "might" be able to get 10 reps, but I know my form would not be as good as the previous 9 or I would really struggle to get that last rep. So 9 is my technical or training max. I would then perform 2-4-6 Ladders with that weight or consistent sets of 5-6 reps.

 

[Bauer]

Hi everyone,

I have a question about strength ladders, especially the ones used in Plan Strong and Built Strong plans: What RPE (rate of perceived exertion, on a scale of 1-10) or RIR (reps in reserve) should the top reps have? So for example in (2,3,5) ladders how heavy should the 5s feel? A RPE of 7, so basically 3 reps more could be done, and make it a 8RM weight (with no fatigue from 2 and 3 reps before, or a 10RM with fatigue), or should it be a RPE of 8 or 9?

And would there be a difference when training for strength or hypertrophy?

One of the reasons I ask is that many programs have different RM ranges for the specific ladders, some use 7-10RM for (2,3,5) ladders, or 2/3 of your RM, or 90% of 5TRM, and so on. But since your RM may not be representative of your performance in the ladders, that would be a nice way to test if you selected the right weight-ladder combination.

The top sets should be somewhat challenging. 1-2 slower reps at the end seem to be ok, at least towards the end of the session, as long as the form stays the same.

Some people have a lower endurance relative to their RM, so you could consider doing one rep less in the top set and adding the remaining reps to the end of the session.

 

[Steve W.]

That's kind of my point, what is a "perfect rep"? Do you stop counting when rep speed changes, or technique or something else? For me RPE is much easier to measure than "perfect reps" (because I am more used to it), and since I am going to do a certain ladder why not directly measure it there.

Also, I am just curious what the intended effort is?

Based on my experience with this Plan Strong-based ladder program with KB MP: The 5TRM Back Squat Program | StrongFirst, IMO, you're overthinking it.

You're not self-regulating based on perceived effort. You're just doing the prescribed reps. If you follow the guidelines for choosing the weight, as long as you can get all the prescribed reps, you're in the right effort range. It doesn't matter how many reps in reserve you think you have, or whether the earlier ladders have more and the later ladders have none. Just get the reps, and rest appropriately as needed (unless the program has specific rest parameters). In this program (the one I did, linked above), the weights are 90% 5TRM and 105-110% 5TRM, so I had to approximate the percentages with KB sizes, and it worked fine. With the weights I ended up using, the sets of 5 were often tough while I was doing the program (often zero RIR, or maybe one), but on test day, I got 12L/10R (I'm left-handed).

If you find that the weight is just too heavy to complete the prescribed reps, that just means you selected the wrong weight for the program, but short of failure, just do the reps.

 

[fabskl]

I am just interested in the underlying reasoning as I know many programs (powerlifting or general hypertrophy) that are based on RPE.

I have used Victorious II with the end of the prescribed RM (e.g. a 10RM for the 7-10), and it was very successful, but after that I did Victorious I and was more at the beginning of the RM and was forced to stop because it was too heavy. Unfortunately, I didn't record the RPE.
But I also did a lot of Powertrain which is autoregulated and there I increased reps when I reached an RPE of 7 or less, and that worked quite well initially, but not so much for the heavier bell, which seemed a bit too heavy with an average RPE of 8.5 for the first heavy rung. So I think an RPE of 7 for the first top rung will work for me.
But an RPE of 7 on the first top rung means much lower RPEs on the first two rungs, so low that they might be 'unnecessary' or at least not as productive?

I would like to mention that this is not a problem, stopping me from using the programs or doubting that they work, I am really just interested.

 

[renegadenate]

But an RPE of 7 on the first top rung means much lower RPEs on the first two rungs, so low that they might be 'unnecessary' or at least not as productive?

I would like to mention that this is not a problem, stopping me from using the programs or doubting that they work, I am really just interested.

The purpose of the lower rep rungs of the Ladder is to get more volume without burning yourself out.

If you only did the higher reps of the Ladder at a higher RPE, you would eventually be unable to complete the reps and wouldn't get as much volume.

Also, the lower rep rungs of the Ladder give you a chance to recover from the top rung.

Depending on the weight being used, your top rung of each Ladder could have a RPE of 7-9 (or even 10 if you went too heavy or had a lot of volume).

Volume is the key to both strength and muscle (when you compress the rest periods, i.e. density).