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Other/Mixed Run Form: Energy Leaks, Controlling the Hip, and Taking Advantage of the Spring Effect

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
Here's what I came to realize: the "secret" with improving movement is to clear the white noise away from the movement so the brain can hear the lesson you are trying to teach it, and then learn from it. For many folks who aren't far gone, this can be accomplished with the accepted practices, and we hear about this all the time on this forum. But what about those who don't respond well?

You have to quiet the noise even further. I am putting together a package that is based in stress reduction--a workshop that I am going to modify for gyms and other facilities. But this portion of the seminar will work well for those instructors who have had this same trouble: the student who won't respond well to the accepted corrective practices.

It is based on soma therapy, as written by Hanna and Feldenkrais. Admittedly, there is nothing new here; I simply assimilated it into my programs.

Flexibility? This is based on the ability to relax, so, quiet the SNS and up regulate the PSNS. No amount of stretching will do this.

Stability? The brain has to reorganize muscle firing and tension: again, quiet down the SNS, and lower the white noise. Get on the ground and move slowly and gently in a way that teaches the brain.

Then, you can move to strength; then, you can consider re-teaching the gross movements. Anyway, it has worked well for those who accept the practice. And mind you, many refuse it, if not repulsed by it. We still live in the age of more, heavier, harder, faster...

This is very intriguing Al. I've been reading a lot over at the SomaSimple forums, and the prevailing approach to physical therapy over there is very in keeping with what I think you are describing. Reading about it in a physical therapy context, I started thinking that a neuro-based approach could have great application to mobility, flexibility, movement health and performance. It's very different from a more structural, "stretch this/strengthen that" approach or Kelly Starrett-style smashing and poking to "improve tissue quality."

OS seems like somewhat of a step in this direction, although I think the whole developmental sequencing rationale is a bit of a red herring. Ironically, Geoff Neupert was heavily involved in a purportedly neuro-based system called Z-Health (that was associated with the RKC for a while) that he ultimately concluded was mostly snake oil.

In my rehab from recent shoulder surgery, I've been homebrewing some threat-reduction based strategies that I feel have benefited me more than most of the stretch and strengthen stuff prescribed by my actual physical therapists.
 

ali

Level 6 Valued Member
Al, atm lessons from 190 to 198 involve knee, ankles and hips. As with all feldenkrais it is really a whole body engagement but that series gave me a new knee.
Steve's point of threat reduction is where the magic happens. And it's interesting because a lesson focused on the movements associated with a dominant hand can free up ankle rom. And each experience will be very individual, affecting our bodies differently. So it's explorative, rather than specific targeting, with a global reorganisation.
The more I do, the more aware I've become. But I'm not sure if any particular atms will have a universal effect. It's all of them but some may just provide some greater insights into areas of the body that have lost sensation.
I'm more able to scan myself running, checking my form more intuitively and that also applies to walking and swinging and pressing. And, it's a piece of the puzzle too....that awareness leads to better strength and strength leads to better movement.
It's a difficult thing to explain.....
 

Al Ciampa

Level 7 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
It's a difficult thing to explain.....

Absolutely. I tend to stick with, "this works, so do it", as I try to understand it better... but I think we will not understand the universe inside us well enough to explain this in theory.

Note that I put breathing before soma therapy on the foundation of the hierarchy, so I teach this first.

The more I do, the more aware I've become. But I'm not sure if any particular atms will have a universal effect. It's all of them but some may just provide some greater insights into areas of the body that have lost sensation.
I'm more able to scan myself running, checking my form more intuitively and that also applies to walking and swinging and pressing.

The improvements are psychological too... you should also be gaining awareness of self, and of how you act in relationships, etc.

This is very intriguing Al. I've been reading a lot over at the SomaSimple forums, and the prevailing approach to physical therapy over there is very in keeping with what I think you are describing. Reading about it in a physical therapy context, I started thinking that a neuro-based approach could have great application to mobility, flexibility, movement health and performance. It's very different from a more structural, "stretch this/strengthen that" approach or Kelly Starrett-style smashing and poking to "improve tissue quality."

OS seems like somewhat of a step in this direction, although I think the whole developmental sequencing rationale is a bit of a red herring. Ironically, Geoff Neupert was heavily involved in a purportedly neuro-based system called Z-Health (that was associated with the RKC for a while) that he ultimately concluded was mostly snake oil.

In my rehab from recent shoulder surgery, I've been homebrewing some threat-reduction based strategies that I feel have benefited me more than most of the stretch and strengthen stuff prescribed by my actual physical therapists.

Steve, I don't think of it as a neuro-based approach; I see it as a mind-body based approach. I don't discount using structural-based therapies as being effective, or as being able to affect change in the brain (as a student of psychology, I have to consider this), but I think these approaches are missing the larger picture and are only effective on those cases where the fundamental connection is already sound.

Like I said, it was those many cases that didn't have good outcomes using accepted approaches that drove me to think harder.
 

ali

Level 6 Valued Member
The improvements are psychological too... you should also be gaining awareness of self, and of how you act in relationships, etc.

Yes, think so too. Marriage guidance v feldenkrais.....I'd prefer some feldenkrais!! I do think there are many other benefits to the practice too, being more self aware and aware of others has to be a good thing. There is a lot of breath awareness too in each lesson and it's very meditative. So a threat reduction and a parasympathetic response may open up possibilities to learn, I dunno and in turn reduce overall stress.....including a reduction in pain signals....which in turn makes for a happier bunny. But yeah, it's getting to, and getting others to, find that place to allow for change. Changing beliefs and attitudes, winning hearts and minds is another thing entirely!
 

Miguel

Level 5 Valued Member
@mprevost , Sir, fantastic work. If you don't mind my asking, what was your platform for gaining this knowledge?

Fascinating conversation, by the way. Really amazing stuff. So very much to learn.
 

mprevost

Level 7 Valued Member
@mprevost , Sir, fantastic work. If you don't mind my asking, what was your platform for gaining this knowledge?

Fascinating conversation, by the way. Really amazing stuff. So very much to learn.

Exercise physiology background and lots of tinkering, filming and reviewing, and testing. I was in a position to do lots of testing at no cost to the athletes, so I did and it was a great learning experience.
 

Matts

Level 3 Valued Member
couple tips/cues from the old days:
1. to prevent rotation, hold hands on the waistband of running shorts in the front, between hips and navel for a couple mins while running, keeping elbows close to ribs stilling upper body rotation. Do for a few mins at a time as frequently as needed to build good habit.
2. Try to use all the muscles in torso to "lift" the spine straight up out of the hipbones; hold while walking or running. Helps posture, proper hip support from above, and promotes independence of upper and lower body. Best to do for short times while skipping or bounding, if otherwise capable. Good to do frequently during day to build habit.

Good runners get enough air that they can cycle the leg enough (off the ground) that the foot "lands" at the "pushoff" and vice versa. I think this ties into the SF "feed forward" context I've seen discussed on forum, but I haven't seen it applied in this context, so I might be mistaken.
 

Kettlebelephant

Level 6 Valued Member
Sure Mike... I spent years analyzing gaits and movement for the AF, and when I used the accepted practices for correction, it never seemed to pan out in a positive way across the board. Some improved, but many didn't. Needless to say, I was less than accepting of this, but kept on the keeping on with my ear to the ground.

Here's what I came to realize: the "secret" with improving movement is to clear the white noise away from the movement so the brain can hear the lesson you are trying to teach it, and then learn from it. For many folks who aren't far gone, this can be accomplished with the accepted practices, and we hear about this all the time on this forum. But what about those who don't respond well?

You have to quiet the noise even further. I am putting together a package that is based in stress reduction--a workshop that I am going to modify for gyms and other facilities. But this portion of the seminar will work well for those instructors who have had this same trouble: the student who won't respond well to the accepted corrective practices.

It is based on soma therapy, as written by Hanna and Feldenkrais. Admittedly, there is nothing new here; I simply assimilated it into my programs.

Flexibility? This is based on the ability to relax, so, quiet the SNS and up regulate the PSNS. No amount of stretching will do this.

Stability? The brain has to reorganize muscle firing and tension: again, quiet down the SNS, and lower the white noise. Get on the ground and move slowly and gently in a way that teaches the brain.

Then, you can move to strength; then, you can consider re-teaching the gross movements. Anyway, it has worked well for those who accept the practice. And mind you, many refuse it, if not repulsed by it. We still live in the age of more, heavier, harder, faster...
Al and @mprevost , in that context, what do you think of the Original Strength approach of rolling, rocking and crawling on the floor and then transition to walking and lastly running/sprinting?
 

mprevost

Level 7 Valued Member
Al and @mprevost , in that context, what do you think of the Original Strength approach of rolling, rocking and crawling on the floor and then transition to walking and lastly running/sprinting?

Quite frankly, I just don't know. In a sense, I feel like I am past crawling and rolling. It is not a method I have used to any extent so I cannot comment from experience. I am a minimalist, so I am always looking to strip a program down to bare bones. That often means that I don't do a ton of extras. I have to be fairly convinced in order to add something in because I abhor a cluttered program. I guess I remain unconvinced, but I am open to the idea.
 
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