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Kettlebell S&S: 4 kg jumps, yes or no?

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Oscar

Oscar

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Are intermediate kettlebells of 4 kg jumps, good or bad in the context of S&S?

For men, Pavel prescribes 8 kg jumps: 24, 32, 40 and 48. I have been working with the 24 for 1 year and already achieved the time standards. The thing is, I have made 3 attempts to start including the 32, but the 3 times I ended up with issues that made me regress to the 24. The three times I started conservatively, including the 32 in 4 sets of 5, mixed with my 24 kg practice. I did this for a few weeks, but then developed some muscle tightness on my shoulder blade the first two attempts, and a minor strain in my glute the 3rd occasion.

I recently bought a 28 kg, not for S&S, but because I think it will be a good size for snatching in the future (thanks @Steve W. for this idea). Argentina is entering a crisis and kettlebells might dissapear, so I thought I rather buy it now. I hadnt used it for S&S because I´m stubborn and want to do the 8 kg jump by the book, specially to learn whatever I have to learn in the process. The thing is, the other day I had to do a S&S practice with the 28 and it felt just right. Given the issues I´ve been having with the 32, I´m wondering if I´d be better off progressing to the 28.

Some more background info: 34 yo, 73 kg bodyweight, no relevant injuries while working with the 24 lately. I havent had issues with the TGU and can do 8 out of 10 with the 32 already. The problem is with the swings. I´ve had my technique checked here at the forum and also by an SFG and it seems to be ok, for TGU and swings with the 24 and 32.

So here are some questions I have about the 8 kg jumps, for my particular case and in a more philosophical sense as well:

1. In S&S, 4 kg jumps are a good idea or not?

2. Is there any advantage in 8 kg jumps, aside from not having to buy the intermediate weight?

3. 4 kg jumps seem almost like a must for presses and snatches. I can snatch and press the 24, but eventually jumping to the 32 doesnt seem practical/sensible/doable. So buying intermediate weights would be useful for these exercises in the future anyway?

4. Bodyweight is probably very relevant to this question. Asking a 45 kg lady to jump from 16 to 24 kg sounds very difficult, while the jump from 24 to 32 for a 100 kg man might be accessible. In my case, at 73 kg, it appears that the 32 is a significant weight.

5. Isnt it safer to do 4 kg jumps than 8 kg jumps? wouldnt we be pushing it when jumping 8 kg?

I'll take the opportunity to drop here a thread were intermediate weights were discussed.

Large Jump KB Program Order

Large Jumps In Kettlebell Sizes
 
I would say go with what feels right. If you are doing ok with the 28, go with that one until you own it, and work in the 32 then, slowly.

I had the same issue: I can swing the 32 one-handed for a 100 reps, was able to do one day of 32kg TGU 10 reps. One week later, I could not even get to elbow on the left side with the 32. Rather annoying!
 
Pavel mentioned that the big jumps in weight are effective for telling your body to get strong. But even a 4kg (9lbs) increase is still relatively a large jump.

If you think about it, what harm could a 4kg jump cause? You won’t get weaker that’s for sure.

Just out of curiosity, you mentioned you tried to incorporate the 32kg a few times but had setbacks. Could you elaborate on that?
 
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SuperGirevik said:
Just out of curiosity, you mentioned you tried to incorporate the 32kg a few times but had setbacks. Could you elaborate on that?
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The three times I started by including 4 sets of 5 with the 32, in lieu of 2 sets of 10 with the 24. So for that first week I kept a total of 100 swings. I then progressed in different manners each time, 6 sets of 5 with the 32 or something like that. In all cases, I noted that the book prescribed a transition from 24 to 32 in a month, so I never progressed faster than that.

The first two times I developed some muscle tightness on my right shoulder blade. The first time I wasnt using chalk, so I think I was insecure of my grip and pulling a bit my shoulder. I noted that, so the second time I started using chalk and really watching my technique. This time it was checked by an SFG with the 24 and the 32 and all good. I developed some pain again, so I regressed again. The third time I had a light strain in my right glute during the first TGU lunge with the 24.

Aside from the specifics of the issues I encountered, it appears to me that 8 kg jumps dont have any wiggle room to accommodate issues that may arise. I know we should strive for perfect technique, but perfect doesnt exist. I´m pretty diligent at watching my technique, not pushing the rest periods, listening to my body, etc, but these issues arise anyway.
 
Oscar said:
The three times I started conservatively, including the 32 in 4 sets of 5, mixed with my 24 kg practice.
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This is much more agressive than the progression example in S&S on page 81.

The example in the book is when moving from a 32 to a 40, but the same progression would apply to 24-->32. It shows using the 40 for 1 set each arm for 2 days, taking a day off, then another 1 set each arm for 2 days, then an unloading day without using the 40 at all, then back to 3 days using the 40 for 1 set each arm, then a day off, then using the 40 for 2 sets each arm. So in this sceanrio, there would be 10 days of gradual work leading up to what you did right away.

Edit: OK I see you did sets of 5 with the 32... so perhaps it is about right. Still, could go a little slower in working it in - 1 set of 5, then 2 sets of 5, etc.

Also: The 28kg is a nice bell to have. :) I don't see any disadvantage to using it.
 
, I was doing 4 sets of 5 reps with the heavy beel, for a total of 20 reps in the workout. Instead of doing 2 x10 as per the book, I did 4x5. I could do a set of 10 reps with the 32, but it just doesnt feel powerful throughout the set. This is why I did 4x5 instead. I also took a day off or a light day only with the 24 every 2 or 3 days, as suggested by the progression you mention. I dont see why you think this was more agressive than what the book suggests?
Anna C said:
Edit: OK I see you did sets of 5 with the 32... so perhaps it is about right. Still, could go a little slower in working it in - 1 set of 5, then 2 sets of 5, etc.
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Anna, yes, thats right, I started with 4 sets of 5. Its pretty much the volume the book suggests, but in sets of 5 instead of sets of 10. I could do a set of 10 with the 32, but dont want to push it.

@SuperGirevik, Im progressing one hand swings with the 24 to 32
 
@Oscar,
As I've stated before, there is no moral dimension to size of KB a person uses. If 28kg feels right for your practice, then there's no reason not to use it.

Yes, you CAN solve problems transitioning between 8kg increments through programming. There are obvious economic reasons to do that, and it's more traditional. There may even be theoretical training benefits.

But you are no less of a human being for using a 4kg increment ;-).

I recently bought a pair of 26kg bells and I'm not afraid to declare it publicly for the whole internet to see!
 
@Oscar - Did you try going from 24kg OA SW to 32kg 2H SW? I would do 2H 32kg swings for 10 sets of 10, then slowly add a sets of OA SW.

But like everyone has said, there is no problem using the 28kg. Heavier weight is heavier weight...
 
Oscar said:
I was doing 4 sets of 5 reps with the heavy beel, for a total of 20 reps in the workout. Instead of doing 2 x10 as per the book, I did 4x5. I could do a set of 10 reps with the 32, but it just doesnt feel powerful throughout the set. This is why I did 4x5 instead. I also took a day off or a light day only with the 24 every 2 or 3 days, as suggested by the progression you mention. I dont see why you think this was more agressive than what the book suggests?
Click to expand...

Yeah after reading your further clarification I would agree it's not much much more agressive, however (I'm nitpicking here), 4 sets of 5 is not precisely equal to 2 sets of 10, mostly because of the initial hike of the bell and also you'll probably be more powerful in sets of 5 than sets of 10. So I'd still probably recommend one set at a time to be added.

I'll second @Steve W.'s input that there are ways to make it work if you want to be a minimalist per the book, but I also don't see any reason not to use the 28kg if it suits you and is available. I certainly used it when working up to 32kg 1H swings.
 
I still think more volume with the 24kg will lead well into low volume with the 32kg. Fatigued 24kg feels a lot like fresh 32kg. I know it's not by the book but if the goal is to get stronger, who cares what method is used to get there.

So many programs exist and so many work for the simple reason that no single program is the best in all scenarios for all people at all times.

An alternative would be to start with 2H swings and jerk + get-downs (jerk-down?) until the body interprets that growth signal as such.
 
SuperGirevik said:
Steve W are you training for kettlebell sport by any chance? For some reason I recall reading that you’ve either competed or trained in GS. I ask because 2kg increments seem to be popular among GS athletes.
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No, I've never trained or competed in GS and have no plans to do so. I identify my practice as hard style, but I have studied GS technique a little and incorporated some bits and pieces that I think are compatible with hard style.

I bought the 26kg bells for some complexes, some higher volume snatching with more extended continuous sets, and basically as a slightly lighter alternative to 28-32kg when I want a lighter day or my hands are a little hot, but 24 is a little too light.
 
@Oscar
I wouldn't be concerned about the jump using 4k, as you said, you tried and were tweaked repeatedly. There is no shame in using what you have to use to progress, I have pairs of bells from 12k thru 48k in increments of 4k and harbor absolutely no guilt about what I use and will protect myself at all times using the kettlebells or any other training tool.
Aside from that, Pavel doesn't pay my bills and I can't make money if I'm injured trying to do something 'by the book'. :)
 
Just for the record, I don’t think Pavel has a negative view on 4kg increments. For example, the SFG 1 requirements for the snatch test utilize 12kg, 16kg, 20kg, 24kg and 28kg bells in relation to body weight.

With S&S, Pavel made the program as SIMPLE and sinister as possible. He cut out anything unnecessary and in reality, you don’t NEED 2kg or 4kg increments.
 
SuperGirevik said:
He cut out anything unnecessary and in reality, you don’t NEED 2kg or 4kg increments.
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In this case 'NEED' is very subjective, I did jump from 24 to 32 with S&S and did get hurt (my own fault as I did something stupid), I probably didn't need the 28, in @Oscar 's case I think he would agree on taking the path of 'least resistance' to get to his goal of handling 'more resistance' is warranted.
S&S is a great book full of wisdom and experience, but let's not treat it as a bible, Pavel wrote it and moved on to other things.
 
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