S&S ++ (again about additions to the program)

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Andrey

First Post
Hello to everyone in StrongFirst Community.

I am new to both this forum and Kettlebells training. Have been reading this forum for the last month or so and find it very useful.

Got my first Kettlebell (16kg) about 2 weeks ago and started following S&S program.

My primary goal for now is fat loss. I know that nutrition is the key and I am working on it as well. Lost about 10 kg so far and still have about the same amount to go.

There are multiple threads on this forum and even a blog entry from Pavel that you should not substitute/change/delete anything from the program if you started it. But I still can not really understand what is wrong with ADDING things to it.

In my case, my daily kettlebell recharge is almost the only physical activity I have during the day and I do not feel like 25-30 minutes (pure warm-up +S&S session duration) is enough for me.

I do the following.

Warm-Up, 1H Swings, TGUs as per the book.

I added

5*5 sets (for each arm, so 50 reps total) of Clean and Press
10*10 Snatches
100 2H Swings


This session takes me about an hour and I am not exhausted after it and ready to the same again next day. Maybe this will change when I progress to heavier bell (planning to start incorporating 24 kg sets next week) and I will have to reconsider the volume of work, but for now I feel ok with this amount.

My questions are:

1. Which disadvantages apart that you can not call it the original program anymore do additions have? Will I not receive some benefits of the original program if I add something to it?

2. Am I doing it correct performing the exercises in specified above order (1H Swings trying to do powerful as per the book and 2H Swings at the end based on 45 secs intervals)? Should I change the sequence?

3. When I progress to heavier bell, are the same rules applied (as described in S&S) to C&P and Sntaches?

Thanks to everyone,

Andrey.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I added

5*5 sets (for each arm, so 50 reps total) of Clean and Press
10*10 Snatches
100 2H Swings
There is nothing wrong with adding to S&S but there are things wrong with what you have added to S&S. Your additions effectively triple the number of ballistics and quintuple the number of grinds, which completely changes the nature of the program and also will very likely result in you overtraining unless the weight is very light, in which case you defeat the strength nature of the program.

-S-
 

JZB

Level 3 Valued Member
You only have so much your body can give. Do some basics and over time you will be able to do more. Think of it like accruing interest. But it takes time.

Do too much and you may be able to do just fine but your body won't be able to get better at any of it. Spend too much and you can't earn interest.

Get good at something by spending time with it. Do the PM/S&S (they both work) with the Beast, or deadlift twice your weight or learn to pistol and one arm push-up. Then spend some more time with that.

After a while you may get to know your body well enough that you'll know what a good substitution or change to a program is.
 

Pavel Macek

Level 9 Valued Member
Master Certified Instructor
If I think of it, my universal answer to most S&S questions probably would be: Own the "Simple" goals first, and then we can talk.

And at that time, most of the questions are already answered.
 

Lew

Level 3 Valued Member
Hello to everyone in StrongFirst Community.

I am new to both this forum and Kettlebells training. Have been reading this forum for the last month or so and find it very useful.

Got my first Kettlebell (16kg) about 2 weeks ago and started following S&S program.

My primary goal for now is fat loss. I know that nutrition is the key and I am working on it as well. Lost about 10 kg so far and still have about the same amount to go.

There are multiple threads on this forum and even a blog entry from Pavel that you should not substitute/change/delete anything from the program if you started it. But I still can not really understand what is wrong with ADDING things to it.

In my case, my daily kettlebell recharge is almost the only physical activity I have during the day and I do not feel like 25-30 minutes (pure warm-up +S&S session duration) is enough for me.

I do the following.

Warm-Up, 1H Swings, TGUs as per the book.

I added

5*5 sets (for each arm, so 50 reps total) of Clean and Press
10*10 Snatches
100 2H Swings


This session takes me about an hour and I am not exhausted after it and ready to the same again next day. Maybe this will change when I progress to heavier bell (planning to start incorporating 24 kg sets next week) and I will have to reconsider the volume of work, but for now I feel ok with this amount.

My questions are:

1. Which disadvantages apart that you can not call it the original program anymore do additions have? Will I not receive some benefits of the original program if I add something to it?

2. Am I doing it correct performing the exercises in specified above order (1H Swings trying to do powerful as per the book and 2H Swings at the end based on 45 secs intervals)? Should I change the sequence?

3. When I progress to heavier bell, are the same rules applied (as described in S&S) to C&P and Sntaches?

Thanks to everyone,

Andrey.
Andrey,

Here is the newbie perspective.

I am 6', 256lbs, 53yo.

My primary goal is strength.
Secondary goal is weight loss.

Just like you, I know nutrition is key, but in spite of my fluctuations, I remain consistent at 5-6 practice sessions a week.

I'm swinging 16kg, and my session, start to finish, is ~32:00

I've cut my caloric intake in half, started S&S, and do a 30:00 farmers walk at night with 20lbs each hand.

I've lost 10lbs in 14 days.

You've lost 10kg (~25lbs).
Congratulations!!

I don't care how much I weigh. I only weigh myself for my heart rate monitor values. I'd be happy at 200 kg if I had a 32" waist, 50" chest, and 16" biceps. I just want to feel and look as good as I can, in that order.

The program is Simple and Sinister.

If you add a bunch to it, it's no longer simple, is it?

It's not just a fat loss program.
It's not just a strength program.

It is a strength AND conditioning program designed for all around fitness from your heart muscle to your core to your functional strength overall.

All that in 30 minutes a day.

You have an extra half hour and your primary goal is fat loss, but you also want to get strong.

So you have two choices, go up significantly in weight for S&S and pay close attention to your heart rate (the best results are achieved between ~50-60% of heart rate max, or keep the weight low and spend an hour in the fat burning zone like you are doing.

1) a disadvantage to additions is that program test and progression can get blurred with what else you are doing.

2) did the book specify 45 sec intervals? If you are not sure of the sequence, refer to the book. The book was written by one of, if not THE premier kettlebell practitioner in the world. S&S is based on decades of real world training and experience. I wouldn't change a thing unless you can challenge Pavel's credentials.

3) sounds like you want to blend S&S with ROP from ETK.

Ultimately, you take what someone else has done and make it fit what you are trying to accomplish.

S&S is your foundation, but you are building something a bit different; a leaner, stronger, Andrey.

Don't get hung up on the details.

Just do your homework enough so something you are doing isn't UNdoing something else.

You are off to a great start.
Listen to your body, don't get injured.
And continue to educate yourself.
This forum is an excellent place to start.

Sorry for the long response.
I'm on vacation!!
:cool:
 

Andrey

First Post
Thanks to everyone for your replies. I really appreciate.

Most probably I will reconsider my session's volume when I start working with the heavier bell next week.

I just like doing other exercises and not stick only with the 2, even if they are the best...

This leads me to another question. In the book Pavel recommends doing S&S every day and he also says that one can do/continue doing other lifting as well.

When is it supposed to be? Later in the day? What difference does it make if I combine them with S&S instead of doing as a separate session in other time?
 

rickyw

Level 7 Valued Member
If I remember, the book mentions if you are doing other strength training to reduce simple and sinister training to 2 (or was it 3?) days per week. I could be wrong. Before I got into Simple and sinister, I was one of those guys who was constantly designing and re-designing my workouts, getting burned out, and yadda yadda, trying to get this movement and that movement to fit into my programs. Then I found this beautiful little set of articles by dan john:
“things are going so well, help me screw it up!” | StrongFirst
“things are going so well, help me screw it up!” part 2 | StrongFirst

Only Dan can say it so well. I stopped fooling around, and got started. This is the first time I have been able to stick with a program for months and months and see complete, linear (albeit wavy linear), progression, and not get bored. As Dan says, performance standards dictate complexity of training. I have said that to myself over and over and over since I started doing simple and sinister. I have used that concept subconsciously in rehab with my patients but I never thought to transfer the principle into my own exercise programs! Until now.

The program works-for strength, for fat loss, for power, for overall well-being. If your swings are boring, you need a heavier bell. They should be snappy and exciting.

If you feel like you are not getting enough exercise find some sport you like playing and play!

Just my two cents ;) Welcome to the forum
 

JZB

Level 3 Valued Member
Andrey,

Assuming you work 80+ hours a week, only can sleep 4 hours per night, eat like a 12 year old in a house full of junk food when his parents are gone, have terrible genetics, zero training background and the worst motor control in human history...

You should be able to reach the Simple goal if you just do S&S for a couple of months. And because you're going to ask: four months. It'll take four months. Then do whatever you want. No more questions or changes or substitutions for the next four months. Deal?
 

Andrey

First Post
Andrey,

Assuming you work 80+ hours a week, only can sleep 4 hours per night, eat like a 12 year old in a house full of junk food when his parents are gone, have terrible genetics, zero training background and the worst motor control in human history...

You should be able to reach the Simple goal if you just do S&S for a couple of months. And because you're going to ask: four months. It'll take four months. Then do whatever you want. No more questions or changes or substitutions for the next four months. Deal?
That sounds very reasonable to me. Thanks a lot. I will follow this advice.

Will stick to S&S and just practice some other exercises from time to time.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Andrey, welcome and good luck with your S&S practice. Sounds like you will do well; keep us posted.
 

Pnigro

Level 3 Valued Member
Andrey,

Assuming you work 80+ hours a week, only can sleep 4 hours per night, eat like a 12 year old in a house full of junk food when his parents are gone, have terrible genetics, zero training background and the worst motor control in human history...

You should be able to reach the Simple goal if you just do S&S for a couple of months. And because you're going to ask: four months. It'll take four months. Then do whatever you want. No more questions or changes or substitutions for the next four months. Deal?
Don't know if you're serious, but it takes a beginner much more than 4 months to reach the Simple goals.
 

TravisS

Level 6 Valued Member
Don't know if you're serious, but it takes a beginner much more than 4 months to reach the Simple goals.
it really depends on how strong someone was to begin with. I'm not that strong and progressed past the 24kg bell in a matter of 2 weeks... it still took me a while with the 32kg and I still feel I could use some work with the 32kg even though I'm peppering in the 40kg.
 

rickyw

Level 7 Valued Member
At least for me, I have found that truly owning a bell takes a lot longer than one would expect, but there is definite strength to be had in doing it. I could easily swing a 32kg long before I owned the 24kg true hardstyle easy strength 100 times in 5 min. Took some humility to back down the ladder, but it paid off. Everyone responds to training a little differently. Patient persistence pays.
 

JamesO

Level 4 Valued Member
And because you're going to ask: four months. It'll take four months.
This is not true for the majority of people. It took me nearly twice that long, and even if it took longer that would be fine.

I've now been swinging the bells for about two years. This morning I doubled the swing portion of S&S and did the get-ups in about 25 minutes for active-recovery after testing in the gym last night for the end of our current cycle. Two years ago doubling the swings would have been very hard on me from a recovery standpoint, and definitely not what I would've done for active recovery. What I'm trying to convey is that what everyone can handle is different, and also that what everyone can handle changes over time.

If you want to add more, try increasing the volume of your swings, but keep your movements to the swing and get-up (they're you're foundation). Working to 10 minutes with the 32kg instead of 5 is the StrengthMatters benchmark.
 

JZB

Level 3 Valued Member
It'll take four months. Unless it takes a different amount of time. then it'll take him however long that was. Whatever. He should do the program as written and not act like he knows how to write a program because he is swinging a 16kg.
 
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