S&S ++ (again about additions to the program)

Faisal

More than 300 posts
@JZB I personally loved your answer of it takes 4 month as that had the required effect of Andrey feeling comfortable to trust the system for 4 months, by then most of his questions will be answered as mentioned by Pavel M.
 

JamesO

More than 500 posts
@JZB . . . as that had the required effect of Andrey feeling comfortable to trust the system for 4 months, by then most of his questions will be answered as mentioned by Pavel M.
I actually think the absolute program adherence line of thinking is Simple & Sinister. It's very popular when it comes to strength programs in particular. The program isn't the goal, the outcome is. Adjust as need be to get the desired outcome. Forget about whether or not you're loyal to the program. It's just the tool designed to get you somewhere.

Increasing swings is just another way to approach progressive overload. It's the same thing as working in more and more sets with a heavier bell. I've been on the record a number of times here that I think 16kg is good for learning the movement, but most guys will find it way too light pretty soon after. That's why I like the 20kg so much. 24 is usually too much too soon, 16 too light, and 20 seems just right. If you don't have one, and you're not ready for or don't have a 24, how do you get that progressive overload? Just swing more. So you're not strictly following S&S. So what? Say you're following the StrengthMatters program and feel good about your loyalty that way. Or say you're following Swing Season, or some program by Tracy Reifkind.
I'm far from intending to be pejorative, though I'm sure it comes across that way. These are just basic principles though. If you can do a little more, there's nothing wrong with doing a little more in an intelligent way.
 

beephsupreme

Triple-Digit Post Count
That's why I like the 20kg so much. 24 is usually too much too soon, 16 too light, and 20 seems just right.
I think that may have been a better route for me - going from 16 to 20 - but since when have I done what's best for me? I'm much too impatient to follow instructions/recommendations to the letter. I usually learn things the hard way :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lew

ali

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
This time last year I was peppering in the 32. Can't remember exactly where I was in that process but I figured I would tick the simple box by the end of the year, going on previous time with the 24 and adding a bit. I picked up a hamstring injury which derailed that deadline. As I had an imposed break I kicked started the new year with Dan John's 10, 000 swings, rightly or wrongly, partly as a challenge and also to brush up on some double practice. I have since been on S&S with the 32 since March, no other strength training. I can get the simple standard for the swings now but not with the get ups and am just going to nail the swings whilst the get ups catch up......everyone is different, different starting strength, different weaknesses, age/youth, injuries, lifestyles etc. Deadlines are good for some, not for others.....imposing unachievable goals could be counter-productive, causing you to push for something, way, way beyond your current capability and potentially even your future or desired capability. At a point, could be the 32, the 24 or the 40, presumably as that is way out of my league just now, progress is slower, much slower than a previous bell and it becomes a significantly greater load to your system. Hats off to those who can blast through the simple standards and onwards but it doesn't diminish the efforts made by others who may take a bit longer. The 32 is my 1/2 bodyweight press, so to some that may be the 40.....in which case the 32 will be less of a demand and may take less time, so perhaps it is unwise to have an endpoint in mind. I was out, by a year! Maybe even more! We'll see........
 

Matts

More than 300 posts
Increasing weight is not the only way to make progress- you can increase force by increasing the speed as well. Better form recruits more muscle fibers quickly and coherently with neurological development. With ballistic exercises, speed and technique are force multipliers. A beginner and an experienced "swinger" will get two very different workouts from the same bell. Following the S&S program and really owning a size by doing it more "hardstyle" as you get stronger should let almost anyone work in a larger bell without intermediate sizes. They're there if you need them, though.
 

krg

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
The 32 is my 1/2 bodyweight press, so to some that may be the 40.....in which case the 32 will be less of a demand and may take less time, so perhaps it is unwise to have an endpoint in mind.
and to some that may be the 48......:(

I personally found intermediate bell sizes helpful - not for the swings (I have a decent counter balance....) but for the get-ups, I live in fear of screwing up a rep by trying to push too heavy too quick.
 

Lew

Triple-Digit Post Count
It'll take four months. Unless it takes a different amount of time. then it'll take him however long that was. Whatever. He should do the program as written and not act like he knows how to write a program because he is swinging a 16kg.
I read this and was instantly reminded of a quip from my mother in my youth...

"Those of you who think you know everything are really annoying to those of us who do."

And on that note I'd just like to say, "Thank you" to every one of you who have been here, and done that, and have the patience to put up with, as well as help every one of us just starting out.
 

JamesO

More than 500 posts
I'd just like to say, "Thank you" to every one of you who have been here, and done that, and have the patience to put up with, as well as help every one of us just starting out.
We're all just starting out in one way or another! The different training philosophies are also all very helpful. Iron sharpens iron (pun not intended o_O). This afternoon I was trying to find Pavel's blog about the burger joint that doesn't allow derivations from the menu, but couldn't. Then the coffee shop's internet dropped and I gave up. It would be an interesting one to post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lew

JamesO

More than 500 posts
Thanks, Anna.

Ironically, the Rif mentioned in that blog, wrote in another blog yesterday that one of the biggest training mistakes people make with kettlebells is not building enough of a foundation:

"People like to train too heavy, too fast. They don’t work on building their base, getting their foundation wide enough so they can actually climb up to the top and actually have a good peak.

So, not rushing the numbers, and not going too heavy, and taking your time to build a solid training foundation would be a key thing to work on, and a mistake a lot of beginners make.

. . . Build your base. Start off with a certain amount of sets and reps. Depending on the exercise, ballistic exercises the volume’s going to be higher, 100 to 200 total repetitions before you move up to the next weight."


This is why I recommend S&S to my friends when they ask me about kettlebells---it builds the foundation of swings and get-ups. I like to say it's like earning your blue belt. I just don't treat the program like a jus cogens norm. Tuning into a little auto-regulation is fine when you stay within bounds*. I don't mind doing 120 swings instead of 100, or 200 like I did on Tuesday, if that's what my body's feeling open to. In the book, Pavel recommends toning it down in various ways when you need to; sometimes I turn it up, too. Today I'm taking the day off because I pushed my max last night with the beast during a two-handed swing test.

*If there's a reasonable reason why not to, I'm open to listening.
 
Top Bottom