all posts post new thread

Nutrition S&S and Intermittent fasting

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

schurgerdc

Level 5 Valued Member
I've been getting back to my Simple levels (not quite in time yet) for weight, but one of the things I've noticed is I'm not releasing weight the way I'd like. I've been doing a low carb/keto approach, and just now starting into intermittent fasting. My schedule allows me to do S&S in the morning, but if I'm good about my IF, then I'm not going to be eating in the morning (butter & coffee the exception), and will effectively be doing S&S in fasted state and keeping that state for 3-4 hours before lunch. I'm hearing mixed messages on consuming calories/protein right after the workout, as there are benefits of staying fasted while in this state, especially if I'm in ketosis (muscle sparing) for the workout.

Looking for advice/input.

@Steve Freides, sorry if this is in the wrong place...rushed for time to post this before getting to work.
 
I did S&S for three months before trying IF, and I've made progress in S&S and maintained an IF eating pattern (more-or-less; used to be 18-20 hours, now closer to 16 on most days), going on 8 months now. I lost 30 pounds net (body fat percentage from ~30% to 18%, and 44" to 36" abdomen) and gained either muscle or "tone" (I'm harder but not bulkier/buff).

Hard to tell if IF delayed my progress with S&S. I typically could only get 3 full sessions in a week due to my schedule and other commitments; occasionally I could squeeze in an extra swing session or two. Given that, it took from February to about May to go from all swings and getups at 24kg to all at 32kg. I'm very close to the achieving the time standards at 32kg now. I don't know if that is slower or faster than normal. But considering I dropped 30 pounds in that time while progressing in exercise intensity (load), I had the benefit of "novice gains", being previously over-fat and under-trained (couch potato).

Granted, my fasting window was/is 8pm to 12pm at least (16 hours), occasionally to 2pm (18 hours), and I train S&S in the evenings between "first" and "second" dinner, so I don't know how it would play out for you with additional variables (keto, fasted training).

Perhaps adjust just one variable at a time and see how you feel:
- Less ketogenic diet (more good carbs for more ready-to-use energy), but compress the eating window (IF)
- Maintain ketogenic, don't increase the intensity in your training, but slowly introduce IF
- Adjust the intensity of your training while maintaining keto to see if you are under-recovered from the diet
 
I think a lot of it depends on 1) how well adapted your body is to exercise in a fasted state, and 2) how you run your S&S sessions.

1) The better adapted you are to operating in a fasted state, the less it matters when you train. I've done my A+A sessions and aerobic work in the morning, afternoon, and evening. I typically run a 16/8 IF schedule, and have been doing that for 2-3 years now. I realize now that I probably could have saved a lot of time by doing away with lunch a while ago, and am doing just that now, but I digress. After the first year of IF (give or take) I never noticed much of a connection between when I trained, how I felt, and what my weight did (to be fair, I've been within 5 pounds of a good weight for quite a while, so I don't even know what it would take to gain/lose a significant amount of weight).

2) S&S can be operated as a purist A+A program, a daily puke fest, or anything in between. To be fair, I think "somewhere in between, with a slant towards A+A," is the intent, but people have gotten good results using plenty of different work/rest strategies. In my experience, biasing your S&S practice towards an A+A style approach (start each set pretty fresh to minimize cumulative fatigue) tends to be most agreeable with a fasted body. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some people could push it hard each day while fasted, but whenever I tried that it always left me feeling crummy.

There are, indeed, mixed messages about post workout fueling. I stopped doing it a while (2, 3, maybe 4 years ago?), and didn't notice any difference in muscle mass. I am going to make two bold statements:

1) A competitive strength athlete who is trying to maintain the heaviest body weight they possibly can while training multiple times per day should definitely take in some post-workout fuel to prevent muscle wasting.

2) An office worker who uses a few 15 minute strength sessions per week and lots of walking to increase their longevity and quality of life would get absolutely no benefit whatsoever from post-workout fueling.

Which end of the spectrum are you on? Personally, I'm at a weight that my body "likes" to be at, and my training is limited to maybe 3-4 hours per week due to the fact that I have a family and professional ambitions. Therefore, I feel no need to sync my eating and my training, and as far as I can tell, that hasn't caused any issues.

I've heard some people say delaying food intake after fasted exercise can result in an especially high surge in growth hormone once you do break your fast, but I honestly have no idea if that's true or not.

I say go for it. See what happens. You won't die ;)
 
@Snowman, some good, common-sense advice there.

I tend to have a little something to eat either before or after training, and really just because it makes me feel better. I can't say I've noticed a big difference in my results.

-S-
 
I know that if I did S&S in the morning fasted state and went about my daily business I'd be chewing on my own arm or tucking into my steering wheel whilst sitting in traffic. But that's me. And I'm lean, fat loss is no concern. Recovery is, so I'd eat. Maybe switch your meal timings around to reset your eating window.
Or, switch to calorie counting and spread it all out to fit your lifestyle to get back on track with your goals, if stalled that is.
Personally, I never do, no idea other than a rough eyeball and perception of hunger.
I came across a really good simple analogy to apply to personality type and calories......are you a baker, or cook?
Baking is very precise, the right ingredients, the right amounts in the oven at the right temperature produces a perfect cake, well balanced for taste and texture. The recipe works each and everytime, a set of instructions if followed exactly. Get one bit wrong and a sludgy mess results. The cook chucks it all in, bit of this, bit of that, experiments a bit, tweaks it here and there. Overtime learns to cook the perfect balanced dish with many variables and it becomes instinctive. Different meats and veg respond differently to different ovens and heat. I'm a cook. I make a total mess baking, useless. I spill stuff, can't be arsed with all the measuring and forget how long things have been in the oven and napalm the lot. And can never figure out where it all went wrong, too scatter-brained for the precision required. You could be good at both of course and be elevated to the grand title of chef. Which are you?
I don't and never will count calories but it is very precise and it works.
Just an option.
Be a chef. Do both. Count calories and fast a couple days a week, or something. Work out your weekly needs, create a sustainable calorie deficit, divvy it all up with macros, good food, fast on recovery days.....see how it goes.
 
Last edited:
Hello,

+1 for @ali
I know that if I did S&S in the morning fasted state and went about my daily business I'd be chewing on my own arm or tucking into my steering wheel whilst sitting in traffic. But that's me. And I'm lean, fat loss is no concern. Recovery is, so I'd eat
I am also lean and for a while, I ran IF. At the beginning, this is pretty comfortable and efficient.

After a while, in becomes a bit exhausting...as recovery starts to become a problem for lean folks. I am not sure that IF is well adapted for already lean / skinny because most of the time "our" main concern is recovery. At the time, I trained when I woke up. During the morning, I had issues. However, after some months, I started to be a little tired in the afternoon (feeling to be "soft and empty").

After, I modified timing, to eat directly after training and I had energy again. Nonetheless, after a while...I had less energy for my training, so I did some kind of "cycle".

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I'll add that I didn't get hungry at all while fasting until my body fat percentage dropped below 20%. The more fat you have, the longer you can comfortably fast and the less you feel hungry if you are training fasted. Now that I'm around 18%, I am ready for lunch at noon especially if I stopped eating after dinner at 6 the night before.
 
Good points @Sean M and @pet'. You're not the only ones whom I've heard say that IF worked really well, until it didn't. And people with extra fuel stores tend to have a little more margin for error, whereas leaner folks have to be more conscious of eating enough when they do eat (and even that doesn't always help). I think it just goes to show that we can't get too dogmatic about how we eat, and we need to pay attention to our bodies.
 
Good points @Sean M and @pet'. You're not the only ones whom I've heard say that IF worked really well, until it didn't. And people with extra fuel stores tend to have a little more margin for error, whereas leaner folks have to be more conscious of eating enough when they do eat (and even that doesn't always help). I think it just goes to show that we can't get too dogmatic about how we eat, and we need to pay attention to our bodies.
Right on. Looking back, I can't attribute a certain weight/score to the timing of food intake compared to the total energy/calories consumed. I was in a fasted state for longer, but I also know I ate less overall. Which factor contributed more? Hard to say. Either way, it worked for me.
 
One of the points Ori makes in The Warrior Diet is that he doesn't advocate fasting but rather under-eating times alternated with over-eating times.

-S-
 
Hello,

Honestly, at the beginning, it was perfectly doable but I was obliged to eat all I could in one time only. I do not think I could eat more in only one meal ! Right after this meal, I sometimes felt a bit "heavy" and sleepy (let's say 1 or 1h30 after the meal)

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
I been doing the warrior diet for a month now and it has worked well with my training. The undereating phase is key to making it to my main feeding window in the evening.

A typical day would be coffee in the morning, some fruit and/or 2 boiled eggs around lunchtime, and from that point until my main 4 hour feeding window I munch on some nuts or cheese and drink tomato juice....just basically buying time until supper. Usually about an hour and 1/2 before "gorge time" as I like to call it I do S&S which takes about 45 minutes including warm up and cool down. About 45 minutes after that I start the 4 hour feeding window.

So in effect my recovery meal is my main meal of the day. It always includes a hefty bit of protein and "good" carbs and sometimes top it off with a chunk of dark chocolate for dessert.

I'm not losing weight at an astonishing rate (5lbs this month) but I feel I have better energy and mental clarity and always feel refreshed before and after my workout. Before trying the warrior diet I was a "3 meals a day" guy and would have several times in the day when I felt sluggish and had no energy ....I'm assuming from blood sugar spikes.

I don't think I could go all day and eat absolutely nothing and then do a workout. I don't think it's good for you and Ori gives plenty of reasons why you shouldn't in the book.
 
I'll add that I didn't get hungry at all while fasting until my body fat percentage dropped below 20%. The more fat you have, the longer you can comfortably fast and the less you feel hungry if you are training fasted. Now that I'm around 18%, I am ready for lunch at noon especially if I stopped eating after dinner at 6 the night before.

I am amazed and impressed at the weight loss you accomplished. Maintaining Intermittent Fasting for 8 months is the definition of dedication.

Body Fat Percentage and Hunger

What you stated about you hunger increasing as you body fat percentage went down is a bit confusion.

With a body fat percentage of 18%, means you still have an enormous amount of "Fat Calories" to burn for energy.

You didn't list you body weight to estimate the amount of "Fat Calories" you have.

With that said, here a abstract example to illustrate my point.

Mathematical Example

Let's say a 200 lb individual has 18% body fat.

200 lbs X 18% = 36 lbs of Body Fat

36 lbs of Body Fat X 3500 kcal (amount of calories in pound of fat) = 126,000 kcal of "Fat Fuel" you have

Ghrelin

This is the hormone that trigger hunger.

Usually, a decrease in caloric intake increases Ghrelin.

Thus, it appears that it most likely your hunger is not due to a decrease in your body fat percentage.

Your hunger is most like driven by the decrease in your caloric intake.

Kenny Croxdale
 
I am amazed and impressed at the weight loss you accomplished. Maintaining Intermittent Fasting for 8 months is the definition of dedication.

Body Fat Percentage and Hunger

What you stated about you hunger increasing as you body fat percentage went down is a bit confusion.

With a body fat percentage of 18%, means you still have an enormous amount of "Fat Calories" to burn for energy.

You didn't list you body weight to estimate the amount of "Fat Calories" you have.

With that said, here a abstract example to illustrate my point.

Mathematical Example

Let's say a 200 lb individual has 18% body fat.

200 lbs X 18% = 36 lbs of Body Fat

36 lbs of Body Fat X 3500 kcal (amount of calories in pound of fat) = 126,000 kcal of "Fat Fuel" you have

Ghrelin

This is the hormone that trigger hunger.

Usually, a decrease in caloric intake increases Ghrelin.

Thus, it appears that it most likely your hunger is not due to a decrease in your body fat percentage.

Your hunger is most like driven by the decrease in your caloric intake.

Kenny Croxdale
Makes sense: less calories = more hunger (from ^ ghrelin)

I never counted calories, and it was certainly less than before, but I believe it is either going up now or something else is going on, as I've stabilized at 200lb @ ~18% for the last month or so. I'm fine with it because it was my target weight, waist circumference (50% of height), and <20% body fat.

I soon stopped calling it IF ("fasting" triggers all kinds of drama for most people when it comes up in conversation). I just think of it as, "Don't snack yourself into an extra meal before bed, and continue the same process that keeps you "fed" all night, for several hours upon waking".
 
Hello,

Regardless the IF in itself, what do you eat ?

When I ran this diet, I was managing carbs and proteins with fast and slower absorption, the same for fat. That way, I was sure to get some energy :
> right after the training session
> and then throughout the day until the next eating window

As a caricature, for the same caloric intake, this is not the same eating some fruits (simple carbs) and eating rice (complex carbs).

Good article about fasting, found on OTP:
Douglas Graham: Fasting Explained - A Guide for Trainers - On Target Publications

Kind regards,

Pet'
 
Last edited:
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom