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Kettlebell S&S and PTTP...Good Combo or Overkill?

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Dragonsblood

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I'm not sure where to post this but, I've always wondered is it possible to combine S&S with PTTP without burning myself out?

For example S&S 2x a week/PTTP 3x a week, etc.
 
Here is what @Pavel Macek has to say about it:
2 days PTTP, 2 days S&S, or
14 days PTTP, 14 days S&S

Note 1: own at least "Simple" standards, and I mean really own.
Note 2:
To reap the benefits, you have to keep doing the program for at least couple of months.

The third option, also referenced by @Steve Freides and Pavel himself, is 12-week blocks.

And here is an interesting chart on residual training effects which forms the basis for block training.
Issurin 2008 - Block Periodization.JPG
Source: Issurin, 2008

The idea is to "hit it hard and run before diminishin returns set in" (Pavel in ROTK) and thus focus on one thing at a time.

For two week blocks, Pavel recommends no "maintenance" training for the neglected modality:
Pavel in ROTK said:
I believe it is better to lay off the other type of training as completely as possible (...) In other words, your body will be more responsive to the grinds if you have laid off them completely for a while as opposed to dabbled with them. (...) Motor learning people know that a skill tends to surprisingly improve after a layoff.

However, in the FAQ of ETK Pavel recommends jump rope or sprint training during 12-week PTTP blocks to keep conditioning.
 
For discussion sake

1. Have you attained timeless simple?
2. How much can you deadlift and what is your current bodyweight?
 
Ive posted this elsewhere but I got stronger faster in both S&S and PTTP by alternating every two weeks. And put on quite a bit of muscle compared to doing S&S alone.

I was also doing BJJ 3-5 times a week at the time fwiw.

Since all the gyms are closed I am back to S&S and Q&D to try to keep up my conditioning.
 
And you did the usual pttp (deadlift and press) and s&s? How many days a week did you train?
 
3-5 for each depending on the week. PTTP weeks tended to be more. S&S tended to be a little less. I just enjoyed PTTP more and felt it was easier to do compared to S&S.

And yes the usual PTTP but bench press instead of KB presses
 
The Russian version (5,3,2) or the other (5 at 100 and 5 at 90%)
 
For discussion sake

1. Have you attained timeless simple?
2. How much can you deadlift and what is your current bodyweight?


1. Working toward timeless simple now since I bought the latest S&S book from Kindle.
2. I can do five reps of 210.
 
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What weight progression/cycle would you use for pttp since it's just two week blocks?
 
Current bodyweight is 240lbs at 5'7". Too fat at that height.

So I would focus on a lot of daily low level activity and just being more mindful of what you eat along with lots of S and S .

At your weight, long walks are already a form of loaded carries
 
Any advice on how to control cravings?
I am a hard gainer and needed to focus on eating, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

One thing: Have good snacks available: Prepare them right after a meal (or while cooking): Nuts, fruit, veggies.
Another thing: Just alter your portions slightly. Like a few grams less of meat of fat and more veggies in place.

And for me the transition to intermittent fasting was helpful. That is, not eating for 12-18 hours per day and having an eating window of 12-6 hours respectively. You could try 12:12 first. This will accomplish a few things:
a) Give your gut time for clearing up and maintenance work.
b) Trigger autophagy (more with longer fasting times): The body will recycle a lot of old, worn-out cells, clearing up the mess. It does not do this, when constant food supply brings new "cell material" every few hours.
c) Alter your insulin response: When you first try it, you might feel very low on blood sugar (cravings, feeling cold, headaches), but your body will adapt and you will feel less hungry. You will actually learn to control appetite and to feel ok (and even great!) while being hungry. This is a huge psychological shift and will give you a lot of freedom. Trust me, it is big.
d) And then it will likely also decrease your caloric intake - just because there is less time available.
e) And maybe your body composition will change even without changing macros or total intake (this is studied in mice, and some people report the same for humans).

16:8 works perfect for a lot of males (12:12 often better for females). But preliminary research suggests that as long as your are fasting for at least 12 hours per day, 5x per week you will get a lot of benefits.
 
One of the best things about Pavel's writings is that he gives you the road map to make your strength & fitness goals seem achievable.

The bad thing about Pavel's writings is that if you read to many of them, you will want to go out a do all of the programs at once.

PTTP & S&S are both great programs, but I would recommend taking a hard look at your goals. Then let your goals point you towards one of the programs. Nothing wrong with wanting to do both, but to get the most out of them and to make the fastest progress, you need to run each one separately and long enough to make meaningful adaptations. The more of a beginner you are in these forms of training the longer you will need to stick with a program to gain proficiency and gain most of the adaptations before you want to move to a different program.

When listening to other's experience on mixing these programs, context, such as their experience and goals, comes into play.

You may see people successfully mix 2 programs together at once, but the odds are:
* They are already fairly proficient and advanced in those programs/movements
* They are focusing on slow progress in one program, while using the other lightly for maintaining and/or recovery.

You may see people successfully alternate 2 programs on short blocks (2 to 8 weeks), but again, they probably already achieved all their beginner/intermediate gains from these programs/movement patterns. The more advanced they are, the shorter the blocks they can get away with.

Other people may be mixing the programs together and be perfectly satisfied because they may be exercise-driven (more exercises = better) instead of end goal-driven. In effect, they are meeting their immediate goal of just doing all their favorite exercises. Nothing wrong with that if that's what makes them happy.

Like I said, both programs are great, but you need to look at your goals. These are my opinions:
* Absolute strength: PTTP get you there quicker, S&S will build a wider base for later programs
* Endurance: S&S is better rounded for GPP where ballistics cover conditioning. PTTP you would need to supplement with a couple of sessions of cardio (walking, running, jumping rope etc)
* Hypertrophy: Neither program is considered a true Hypertrophy program, but surprisingly, I believe S&S will give you more hypertrophy if you can work up to a good volume with heavier bells (32kg on up for guys). PTTP features heavier weights at low reps to build strength, not size. Having said that, PTTP will set the table, if you wanted to move on to a serious hypertrophy barbell program afterwards.
* Fat loss: Neither have the advantage. You need a diet strategy in either case.

When you look at diets and eating strategies, please understand that there is no "one size fits all". As a person who has struggled with weight his entire adult life, nothing is more frustrating then to hear how some people can just casually eat this, or not eat that, or change meal timing and lose their 10 to 15 lbs. It all comes down to calories-in vs calories-out, and that the calories-in is the most effective way (and sometimes hardest) to lose fat. The more weight you need to lose, the bigger the intervention needs to be. Sometimes you can hit, though trial and error, a diet or strategy that works for you, But keeping track of calories and reducing them to a reasonable calorie deficit will work EVERY time (as long as you do it). I respect the people who say things like "Calories are meant to be eaten, not counted"; But I would bet that these well-meaning people never had to personally battle obesity.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but in short, I'm recommending:
* Look at your long term goals and determine what short term goals you need to set to move towards them.
* Pick the program that fits where you are currently on your path
* Stay with that program until you achieved the goals you set, or where you believed you achieved the lion's share of adaptations that this program provides.
* Reassess your goals and move to a different program.

Good Luck!
 
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