Kettlebell S&S and PTTP...Good Combo or Overkill?

[Papa Georgio]

Any advice on how to control cravings?

* Find a TDEE calculator on internet and determine your TDEE
* Determine daily calorie goal. Shoot for moderate (20-25%) deficit.
* Track calories, I use free app on phone.
* Don't be too obsessed over macros. Try to get around 1 gram protein for each lb of lean mass.
* Have a timing strategy to address the times of the day you are most vulnerable to stray off course

Control with cravings with the meal timing and common sense with food choices. For instance, avoid a high glycemic meal that will spike your insulin and bury your blood sugar levels.

I am not a dietician, but as far as diet content (not calories, macros, or timing; just allowed foods) I'm an advocate for the "Specific-Carb-Diet" The main focus of this diet is to heal and maintain a healthy digestive system. The health of your digestive system is closely tied to the health of your immune system, and in this day and age should be highly relevant. This diet has been used by some doctors to help treat various digestive issues as well as mental health issues. Sadly, we live in a medical society that puts the emphasis on reactively treating disease and poor health with meds & surgeries (because that's where the money is) instead of proactive prevention.

Sorry I'm on my soapbox today.

 

[LJCC]

I am a hard gainer and needed to focus on eating, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

One thing: Have good snacks available: Prepare them right after a meal (or while cooking): Nuts, fruit, veggies.
Another thing: Just alter your portions slightly. Like a few grams less of meat of fat and more veggies in place.

And for me the transition to intermittent fasting was helpful. That is, not eating for 12-18 hours per day and having an eating window of 12-6 hours respectively. You could try 12:12 first. This will accomplish a few things:
a) Give your gut time for clearing up and maintenance work.
b) Trigger autophagy (more with longer fasting times): The body will recycle a lot of old, worn-out cells, clearing up the mess. It does not do this, when constant food supply brings new "cell material" every few hours.
c) Alter your insulin response: When you first try it, you might feel very low on blood sugar (cravings, feeling cold, headaches), but your body will adapt and you will feel less hungry. You will actually learn to control appetite and to feel ok (and even great!) while being hungry. This is a huge psychological shift and will give you a lot of freedom. Trust me, it is big.
d) And then it will likely also decrease your caloric intake - just because there is less time available.
e) And maybe your body composition will change even without changing macros or total intake (this is studied in mice, and some people report the same for humans).

16:8 works perfect for a lot of males (12:12 often better for females). But preliminary research suggests that as long as your are fasting for at least 12 hours per day, 5x per week you will get a lot of benefits.

The autophagy part of fasting is way over hyped in my opinion, especially with anything less than say 20:4 or even 23:1 fasting. Autophagy really doesn't kick in to any great magnitude unless you delve into the deep end with fasting - circa 36-48 hours. BUT, that's when the body will also start to break down lean tissue.. Let's not forget also that constantly turning over cells isn't always a great thing- good cells are lost also, so the continuous growth of new cells to fill gaps where old cells are lost isn't always positive - not to mention, the constant turnover of cells can also increase the chances of new cancerous cells developing also.

Fasting is a great 'tool' and can free you up from being a slave to the kitchen- once you understand that Calories are king and macros will largely dictate performance and where the weight loss / gain is coming from, the need to eat every 2-3 hours disappears.

my advice re. diet is and always will be;

- Eat enough to support your goals
- Find a way to allow you to do so consistently and with enjoyment
- Get sufficient Protein in, filling the gaps with carbs and fats accodingly

 

[Manuel Fortin]

Regarding weight lost, I am not a doctor or a nutritionist, just a guy who was an overweight teenager and who has to be careful with his weight. My whole genetically related family except for my mom who is 74 and had 3 cancers is very overweight to morbidly obese, so I know what not to do: I just look at my family and at my past. My mom is not healthy at her weight, but multiple rounds of chemo wrecks your body. If you go on a weight loss journey, here are a few observations that I hope will help you:

1 - Nobody knows how to lose weight easily. Otherwise, everybody would look like a model. Yet, I would seem that everybody has an opinion on what you should do. Note that all these people will contradict each others. Some will tell you to go plant based, others will tell you to eat mostly meat. Both will tell you their way is the only way to go. However, there are skinny people in all cultures. Many Chinese people are skinny and they eat a ton of carbs (rice!), which is for others enemy number one. People on this forum like meat. It's a good idea for their goal as you can build muscle more easily with more protein. Gaining muscles is very difficult on a plant-based diet. Probably not impossible, but you will have to be careful about what you do. On a meat based diet, you just have to eat meat everyday. Easier. My preference is also meat by the way. Steak is my favorite food. Way above chocolate cake. However, this is just my opinion. My wife likes more variety and will eat vegetarian a few times a week. Yes, this means that we often don't eat the same thing, even at home. I will have meat and she will have chick peas or tofu.

So what to do? My opinion is: try something and see if it works for you. Just like the best exercise plan is the one you stick to, the best weight loss program is the one you are comfortable with. Some people like low carbs, some people like intermittent fasting, others like to count calories. Pick one that looks good, try to implement it, put an item on your calendar to reassess in a few months. If it worked, rinse and repeat. If it does not, try something else.

2 -Science seems to say three basic things:
A - Losing weight slowly seems to be much preferable than losing weight quickly, as quick losses are often reversed within a few months/years.
B - To lose weight, your body has to expend more energy than it absorbs through food. This is thermodynamics. While this seems straightforward, doing it is difficult, and it is extremely difficult to know exactly how much energy you spend and how much you get through food. This is the kettlebell forum, so I will not go into details, but if you use an app, be ready to have very high uncertainty in the numbers. Apps are probably OK to track differences across time, but not absolute number. In other words, if the app says that you ate 2000 less calories than last week and spent1000 calories more through exercise, you probably ate less and moved more than last week. However, the real number may be very different from 3000 calories difference.
C - Refined sugar is bad for weight loss. Really bad. It does not fill you up, contains a lot of calories, and can be consumed in large quantities easily, especially in liquid form (sodas, etc...).

3 - My experience: going to sleep hungry is a bad idea. You will not sleep well. If you finally decide to wake up in the middle of the night to eat, you will make bad choices.

4 - Many use food and drinks for comfort. If you have a tendency to eat to comfort yourself, to reward yourself or drink a lot of alcohol, solving the underlying problem is necessary.

5 - This is a long process. If it took 10 years to gain the weight, losing it in 3 months will be almost impossible. What is needed is basically a lifestyle change (permanent), not a diet (temporary). That's why it's important to choose a method you can live with.

6 - Getting in shape is a very good idea (both cardio and strength). You can spend more calories when you can run instead of walking and lift 400 pounds instead of 200. Getting in shape is also a long process, depending from where you come from. You seem to have a good idea with S&S (here we are, at least some forum-related content! ).

OK, that's already long enough. Good luck on your journey. It can be done.

 

[Anna C]

You may see people successfully mix 2 programs together at once, but the odds are:
* They are already fairly proficient and advanced in those programs/movements
* They are focusing on slow progress in one program, while using the other lightly for maintaining and/or recovery.

You may see people successfully alternate 2 programs on short blocks (2 to 8 weeks), but again, they probably already achieved all their beginner/intermediate gains from these programs/movement patterns. The more advanced they are, the shorter the blocks they can get away with.

Great post! I especially like this insight.

 

[Deleted member 316]

And I literally just put my bar away and cleaned up my plates

 

[guardian7]

What weight progression/cycle would you use for pttp since it's just two week blocks?

I remember reading that 8 workouts is the minimum for a PTTP cycle, so four times a week for upper body. DL can be less frequent according to the book when it gets heavy. So, it might make sense to do a cycle of 2-3 weeks or whatever it takes to get the workouts in, and then two weeks of S&S. In short, stop the cycle as soon as you have made gains rather than milking it out as you would be tempted to do.

Wouldn't the blocks make more sense for an intermediate lifter. Beginners that can follow a linear cycle should just go for it I think until they stall before considering S&S.

 

[Adachi]

Any advice on how to control cravings?

So, I've been obsessed with my own deranged hunger satiety problems for years. And, I've come to a simple and hopefully sinister conclusion eat dead animals and not much else. It's a protocol. It can seem expensive to the untrained eye, but frozen meat bought on sale will take you a long way .I mostly eat ground hamburger. Eat enough meat till you can say no to junk food. For some people that's half a pound , for me it's about 2 lbs a day . Dress it up with seasonings and sides of you feel like you need to.

Just make sure that meat is the star of the show. I can clear about a pound of red meat twice a day and when I see donuts or muffins or whatever, I can pass on it. Harder to do when you are hungry.

Eat enough meat so that you are really totally satisfied.

There's nothing like a 20oz steak to fight cravings .

 

[Deleted member 316]

And with Pavels s&s progression for the next size bell it will take two months instead of one for each step?

 

[Trever]

Any advice on how to control cravings?

I’m not a nutritionist and I’ve never struggled with a weight problem, but this is what I’ve experienced in the last couple years.

For years and years I ate 5-6 meals a day. I ate a lot of good food but definitely had a fair share of crap food mixed in. For me eating all the time kept me hungry all the time. Every two hours battling hunger and hunger creates cravings and increases chance of bad food choices.

Two years ago I started shortening up the time I allowed myself to eat during the day. It takes time but if you have long periods of time that you don’t take in any calories, your body will adjust and get very efficient at switching to using fat reserves, meaning no hunger problems.
The result now for me is that I eat 1-2 meals a day usually in a 6 hour window with nothing but water the rest of the time.
Hunger is very seldom a problem and actually sometimes I have to remind myself to eat because I’m not trying to drop weight. Like I said before, I’ve never had a weight problem and I make sure I eat enough in 1-2 meals to maintain my weight or gain. So far my weight is maintaining but I’m getting leaner.
Im no longer a slave to hunger and cravings, and not eating for 24 to 36 hrs doesn’t even register as uncomfortable to me anymore. At least once a week I will eat just one meal per day, and once in a while I will go 36-48 hrs.
For anyone with real struggles with obesity and the health problems that come with it, I’d highly recommend researching Dr. Jason Fung. He’s a clinician that specializes in that world and has multiple books.
Hope this helps.

 

[Dragonsblood]

Here's what I'm going to do:

-- S&S will be my primary protocol until I own it. I have a pair of 12 kg kettlebells and a pair of 16 kg kettlebells. I need cardio and weight loss so I can go up a few flights of stairs without passing out.

 

[Gravytrain]

So, I've been obsessed with my own deranged hunger satiety problems for years. And, I've come to a simple and hopefully sinister conclusion eat dead animals and not much else. It's a protocol. It can seem expensive to the untrained eye, but frozen meat bought on sale will take you a long way .I mostly eat ground hamburger. Eat enough meat till you can say no to junk food. For some people that's half a pound , for me it's about 2 lbs a day . Dress it up with seasonings and sides of you feel like you need to.

Just make sure that meat is the star of the show. I can clear about a pound of red meat twice a day and when I see donuts or muffins or whatever, I can pass on it. Harder to do when you are hungry.

Eat enough meat so that you are really totally satisfied.

There's nothing like a 20oz steak to fight cravings .

funny i talked to shawn baker once (of carnivore fame) he said "eat so much meat you wouldnt eat a cupcake". He would know. Dudes a beast.

Literally.

 

[Gravytrain]

Any advice on how to control cravings?

Check out the Protein Leverage Hypothesis

The Protein-Leverage Hypothesis: Do We Keep Eating Until We Get Enough Protein?

Protein, carbohydrate and fat are the three primary macronutrients in the human diet, and one of the long-lasting debates in the nutritional community is whether we should get the majority of energy from carbohydrate or fat. Protein is often forgotten since it constitutes a relatively small percenta

darwinian-medicine.com

A couple studies about it on pubmed as well.

Makes sense to me

 

[silveraw]

Thanks for asking this. I’m on a similar journey going from 255 down to 185. Right now at 235.
I had lost most that during the 13 weeks I did S&S but hit a wall and decided to do some pttp for a few weeks before a road trip end of June is taking me back to S&S again. I’m already hating the pure strength work as it makes me stupid hungry if I don’t get enough protein.

there is some good advice in this thread that mirrors what has been working for me. The almighty calorie is the main thing to keep track of. Second is protein. I’m finding if I don’t get at least 140 grams I tend to feel it in the form of hunger.

16/8 fasting didn’t seem to make much of a difference for me provided I broke it with a protein heavy meal. If I didn’t I’d just keep feeling hungry after eating. Longer fasts tended to exacerbate this issue. I tried a couple 36 hour fasts and learned I could actually eat Lots more.

I’ve also found that the week after I lose a lot I feel extra hungry. So I try and keep weight loss down to about 1% a week and that keeps everything sane.

oh and eating 8 servings of veggies a day has made me feel awesome. Highly recommend sneaking them into every meal. So breakfast is usually eggs and toast I’ll put mashed peas and spinach on it.

anyway thanks for asking this question because it cleared up some questions I didn’t know I had about if I should jump back to S&S. And it is nice to see someone else going through the same thing I am.

 

[Bauer]

Here's what I'm going to do:

-- S&S will be my primary protocol until I own it. I have a pair of 12 kg kettlebells and a pair of 16 kg kettlebells. I need cardio and weight loss so I can go up a few flights of stairs without passing out.

Way to go!
One thing to look for: Don't kill it. S&S works best when you feel refreshed after your session, not beaten down. The right dose everyday. Take your time. Think about where you want to be in a year

 

[barrak]

For someone who achieved S&S Simple (not there yet) and wants to switch for a few months to basic PTTP, is it sustainable to start each PTTP session with a light to moderate ballistic movement for 10 minutes as the warmup routine? For example, sets of 5L/5R snatches or 5 long cycle C&J doubles?
The idea is to perfect these movements while hitting a decent HR zone.

 

[Kozushi]

PTTP doesn't have cardio, but S&S does. S&S also takes care of more "mobility" needs through the weird twisty getup movement. If you do PTTP you'll need something like running or skipping to add to it (the book says so.)
S&S is as far as I know the programme most recommended by SF for people in general and for beginners especially.
I don't think running two programmes literally at the same time makes sense unless you're quite experienced at weights and you know your body very well. However, taking some moves out of other programmes and running them on off-days is something a lot of us do. It depends on what one's goals are of course, but I think the main motivation for running other moves is for variety, interest and fun. In my case it seems the more I do this stuff the more interesting it's getting just focussing in on S&S.