Kettlebell S&S and striking

[knockdownfighter1]

Thanks. One more question: did you do it every day? I think I can get in two mornings during the week plus Saturday and Sunday, but more than that would be difficult.

I did S&S Monday to Saturday with Sunday being a full rest day. I was curious as to what results I would get so I was very strict with myself. It sounds like that I also had a lot more time than yourself (No kids yet, small contact hours at work)

I used Thursday as a lighter day (32kg or 28kg bell) as we always have heavy sparring on those days.
As it's been said before, I wouldn't focus too much on S&S progression but more on how it will benefit your striking. I'm no expert but I think 2 to 3 days with S&S and Muai Thai would be sufficient.

 

[knockdownfighter1]

This is a good observation that two-handed swings are still useful for martial artists in particular, even when they have achieved proficiency. There is some evidence that 30% bodyweight is optimal for power. Science of the Swing

There is a detailed discussion here:

Power Production ?

I also think that loaded one leg deadlifts are underrated for martial arts.

That's a cool article! I guess it's dependent on what your goal is. I found anecdotally that my striking (In paticular, leg, rib or head level kicks) were a lot faster and explosive after swinging the 40kg bell. Ive recently started a "strength" cycle and implement S&S 2 days a week with barbell work on other days. I've also recently started swinging a 44kg bell as well and do notice that I can not produce the same amount of speed.

I'll experiment with dropping back down to 40kg when I get closer to a tournament for speed work and see what comes from that.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I'm sure this is true, and I'm also sure that snatching a 24kg bell 100 times is as much exercise as anyone of any strength needs for the "big pull" movement in a day. However, I still find the movement awkward, and since I have my 32kg, I'm content doing swings.

To be honest, I am like you. I am more convenient with swings than snatches. However, I guess this is because we have been spending more time doing swings

Sure the 100 snatches @24 in 5 minutes will be more than enough for most folks ! Once again, this is only how my body reacts, but I need more recovery for snatches than swings. Snatches also require a little bit more handcare than snatches (IMO). So overall, there are more "out of training" things to consider regarding snatch training. Therefore I tend to prefer swings.

Another efficient option to develop striking is working on isometrics (for instance an overhead press at the hardest point). You repeat this 3 times, during 4 or 5 seconds. Then, you go for 6-8 répétitions as powerful as you can. Same goes for legs with deadlifts and jump squats, etc...

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Stuart Elliott]

This is a great thread, and has brought me back to swings. I've been snatching for about 2 years solid, but noticed my sprinting wasn't what it was. At 43 I just put this down to getting older. But after reading this thread I tried double 24kg swings...wow I felt it directly in the hammies and glutes and wanted to sprint after the session where as with the snatches I feel I want to jump. I'll alternate daily from now. I play sports so both suit my purpose.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Doing the swings with a resistance band may also be interesting to increase power. Basically, it can help for jumping, sprinting start, and kicking.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[guardian7]

That's a cool article! I guess it's dependent on what your goal is. I found anecdotally that my striking (In paticular, leg, rib or head level kicks) were a lot faster and explosive after swinging the 40kg bell. Ive recently started a "strength" cycle and implement S&S 2 days a week with barbell work on other days. I've also recently started swinging a 44kg bell as well and do notice that I can not produce the same amount of speed.

I'll experiment with dropping back down to 40kg when I get closer to a tournament for speed work and see what comes from that.

Do you deadlift? I would try "lighter" swings and deadlift as an option. Choose a day before a day off to recover.

Is that Kyokushin that you do by the way? There was a Kyokushin guy who joined my Muay Thai gym. He was really well conditioned but not young. He did this warmup where you rock back and forth on your heels to stretch your achilles and front of your shin but he could balance completely on his heels. It was really effective. Don't know what it is called.

 

[Kozushi]

This is a great thread, and has brought me back to swings. I've been snatching for about 2 years solid, but noticed my sprinting wasn't what it was. At 43 I just put this down to getting older. But after reading this thread I tried double 24kg swings...wow I felt it directly in the hammies and glutes and wanted to sprint after the session where as with the snatches I feel I want to jump. I'll alternate daily from now. I play sports so both suit my purpose.

Yes, I get the impression that swings get the legs more involved, and maybe this is because I can swing heavier than I can snatch.

 

[pet']

Hello,

When it comes to striking power, I like to compare the human body to something elastic and bouncy. This is why I really enjoy moves such as clean & jerk, push press, etc...

The following will be a little out of the orginal post, but rubber bands drastically improve this ability. Indeed, you can perform more or less normally the moves (for instance a punch), without damaging the technique. Nonetheless, you still get some additional resistance.

Plus, like most of the time, technique is crucial. I saw a 50kg girl throwing a 80kg guy thanks to technique (timing, precision) only. The girl was not especially "strong" (meaning able to lift heavy)

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Stuart Elliott]

Yes, I get the impression that swings get the legs more involved, and maybe this is because I can swing heavier than I can snatch.

I'd say swings get the hamstrings and glutes more involved and with a wider stance for double kettlebells they also hit the thighs but no as much. The reverse is pretty much true for the snatch. It does hit the glutes and hammies but i feel it more so in the thighs.

 

[Kozushi]

I'd say swings get the hamstrings and glutes more involved and with a wider stance for double kettlebells they also hit the thighs but no as much. The reverse is pretty much true for the snatch. It does hit the glutes and hammies but i feel it more so in the thighs.

Due to the FSG requirements I get the impression that SF prioritizes the snatch as the number one kettlebell move. I'll have to start doing some sessions with it without interrupting S&S to do so.

 

[Stuart Elliott]

Due to the FSG requirements I get the impression that SF prioritizes the snatch as the number one kettlebell move. I'll have to start doing some sessions with it without interrupting S&S to do so.

If your technique is sound, you could replace the swings with snatches on a couple of days. I think alternating swing and snatch days would be beneficial once your able to swing heavy (which you are).
The snatch certainly has benefits over the swing, but swinging heavy explosively hits the posterior chain more than the snatch and also aids the snatch, just in my brief experience. This may even out once you can snatch the 48kg or higher, I don't know.

 

[Anth]

I had my first sparring session yesterday (since I started S&S). I felt a bit more conditioned and a lot more power. One WTH effect that I didn't expect. My pull (leaning back and to the side to dodge a punch) was a lot more effective. I saw a lot more punches go past my face that would have landed before. I put this down to more core strength or lower back flexibility maybe? A bit more explosiveness in my lower back?

Anyway, it went great so I'm super pumped to keep going (I've only done I think 7 sessions). Normally I take the day after sparring off, by my body feels like it wants to pick up a KB, so I might just put a session in today. I don't feel tired or in pain at all.

 

[Jake Steinmann]

I had my first sparring session yesterday (since I started S&S). I felt a bit more conditioned and a lot more power. One WTH effect that I didn't expect. My pull (leaning back and to the side to dodge a punch) was a lot more effective. I saw a lot more punches go past my face that would have landed before. I put this down to more core strength or lower back flexibility maybe? A bit more explosiveness in my lower back?

Anyway, it went great so I'm super pumped to keep going (I've only done I think 7 sessions). Normally I take the day after sparring off, by my body feels like it wants to pick up a KB, so I might just put a session in today. I don't feel tired or in pain at all.

It’s great that S&S is helping you, but I’d be very cautious about conflating skill improvements with improvements in strength and conditioning. No amount of kettlebell swinging is going to help you see better.

I’d submit you had a skill breakthrough w/r/t the improvements in your pull. Maybe the improved conditioning helped you relax and see a little more, but that’s about as far as I’d make the correlation

That said, it’s great that you’re getting good results. Keep on keeping on

 

[Anth]

It’s great that S&S is helping you, but I’d be very cautious about conflating skill improvements with improvements in strength and conditioning. No amount of kettlebell swinging is going to help you see better.

I’d submit you had a skill breakthrough w/r/t the improvements in your pull. Maybe the improved conditioning helped you relax and see a little more, but that’s about as far as I’d make the correlation

That said, it’s great that you’re getting good results. Keep on keeping on

You’re probably right. Or maybe what happened is that I just felt a little better and stronger so I was actually able to do more of what I’m capable of... Or maybe I’m just making up positive effects as a self-fulfilling prophecy lol.
Either way, I’m definitely feeling better and I’m confident that it’s because of my new training so it’s a net positive.

 

[Kozushi]

It’s great that S&S is helping you, but I’d be very cautious about conflating skill improvements with improvements in strength and conditioning. No amount of kettlebell swinging is going to help you see better.

I’d submit you had a skill breakthrough w/r/t the improvements in your pull. Maybe the improved conditioning helped you relax and see a little more, but that’s about as far as I’d make the correlation

That said, it’s great that you’re getting good results. Keep on keeping on

Hmmm... S&S does more or less the same as what he is saying, for my judo skill. S&S seems to "prime me up" for judo. My body feels conditioned for the gruelling 90 minutes of judo wrestling activities, my movement patterns feel sharp and primed for action, and I feel limber, strong, and long-winded.

I've been doing S&S for 3-4 years now, sometimes "on and off" so I'm sensitive to the different feelings of being "in S&S shape" and being out of "S&S shape".

If I had to guess what S&S is doing in the short term is that it's increasing endurance, which I think the science supports - you get rapid endurance gains, which are sadly also lost fairly quickly (within 2 weeks of stopping S&S). Also, S&S is movement-against-resistance training, and at any rate "mobility training". S&S primes up your mind for anti-twist resistance, hip flexibility, and balance under stress. In other words, what I'm saying is that I think S&S is in fact "skill" training for sport. It isn't exactly the skills for the sport, but it covers some very key mobility skills, such as those mentioned by the gentleman like dodging back to avoid punches, springiness and the like.

 

[guardian7]

Hmmm... S&S does more or less the same as what he is saying, for my judo skill. S&S seems to "prime me up" for judo. My body feels conditioned for the gruelling 90 minutes of judo wrestling activities, my movement patterns feel sharp and primed for action, and I feel limber, strong, and long-winded.

I've been doing S&S for 3-4 years now, sometimes "on and off" so I'm sensitive to the different feelings of being "in S&S shape" and being out of "S&S shape".

If I had to guess what S&S is doing in the short term is that it's increasing endurance, which I think the science supports - you get rapid endurance gains, which are sadly also lost fairly quickly (within 2 weeks of stopping S&S). Also, S&S is movement-against-resistance training, and at any rate "mobility training". S&S primes up your mind for anti-twist resistance, hip flexibility, and balance under stress. In other words, what I'm saying is that I think S&S is in fact "skill" training for sport. It isn't exactly the skills for the sport, but it covers some very key mobility skills, such as those mentioned by the gentleman like dodging back to avoid punches, springiness and the like.

I am no expert but my experience is similar and also applies to deadlifting too. Most of the posterior chain is worked on which helps to counteract that hunched forward posture. The anti-rotation strength from one hand swings would be critical in a sport like Judo. Training tension for resistance/bracing vs loose movement for sudden directional changes in martial arts. Calves strength and glute engagement for directional changes. Anyone else feel swings build calves or is it just a weak area for me I found due to the demands from Muay Thai? The transfer makes sense to me and I have felt it. I felt deadlifting made me less tired in heavy bag kicking. Can't prove it but it makes sense to me.

 

[pet']

Hello,

I also practice boxing (French boxing, fists & kicks as well).

I tend to think that the most important thing to work on is technique. Indeed, as in any "skill sport", strength / power without technique does little but nothing. Therefore, I tend to agree with Steve Maxwell, when he says that to perform better a move, the best thing to do is to repeat it over and over again. Doing so, the body naturally build the required muscles and learns how to make them work together to perform correctly.

So, regarding power in the legs (or even the arm), hitting the heavy bag and sparring may be the first thing to do. Shadow boxing, even if it can be underrated is an excellent exercise as well. Shadow boxing especially good at the very beginning as a warm up, or at the very end of the session, as a cool down, to learn how to fight efficiently (meaning smoothly) under fatigue).

Every types of boxing may be consider as a dance. If we look at dancer legs, they are so thin but so strong, muscular, supple and powerful.

That being said, an intelligent weight training may also help (both for general purpose and sport specific). For instance, I noticed that my leg power is better since I do between 5-7 heavy but very powerful DLs a day. Same goes for powerful OAOL PU. In both cases, I really focus on the concentric phase: I put as much power as I can. Resistance bands also help, but they are very specific to boxing. So do agility ladders.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kozushi]

Hello,

I also practice boxing (French boxing, fists & kicks as well).

I tend to think that the most important thing to work on is technique. Indeed, as in any "skill sport", strength / power without technique does little but nothing. Therefore, I tend to agree with Steve Maxwell, when he says that to perform better a move, the best thing to do is to repeat it over and over again. Doing so, the body naturally build the required muscles and learns how to make them work together to perform correctly.

So, regarding power in the legs (or even the arm), hitting the heavy bag and sparring may be the first thing to do. Shadow boxing, even if it can be underrated is an excellent exercise as well. Shadow boxing especially good at the very beginning as a warm up, or at the very end of the session, as a cool down, to learn how to fight efficiently (meaning smoothly) under fatigue).

Every types of boxing may be consider as a dance. If we look at dancer legs, they are so thin but so strong, muscular, supple and powerful.

That being said, an intelligent weight training may also help (both for general purpose and sport specific). For instance, I noticed that my leg power is better since I do between 5-7 heavy but very powerful DLs a day. Same goes for powerful OAOL PU. In both cases, I really focus on the concentric phase: I put as much power as I can. Resistance bands also help, but they are very specific to boxing. So do agility ladders.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Ah, Savate! I did l'escrime for quite a number of years. The French have some very effective martial arts to learn.

 

[knockdownfighter1]

Do you deadlift? I would try "lighter" swings and deadlift as an option. Choose a day before a day off to recover.

Is that Kyokushin that you do by the way? There was a Kyokushin guy who joined my Muay Thai gym. He was really well conditioned but not young. He did this warmup where you rock back and forth on your heels to stretch your achilles and front of your shin but he could balance completely on his heels. It was really effective. Don't know what it is called.

Sure do Deadlift! my 1rm is 250kg at 90kg bodyweight. Took a long time to get there though.

I do a style that is similar to Kyokushin. I compete Kyokushin tournaments all the time and most of the fighters I look up to are Kyokushin as well. We do that exercise as well, I don't know the name of it but it's pretty effective.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Ah, Savate! I did l'escrime for quite a number of years. The French have some very effective martial arts to learn.

In Savate, meaning in the same federation, there is stick fighting as well. This is a kind of fencing. I think I'll give a shot next year, especially to improve joint mobility, reaction time and power !

Kind regards,

Pet'